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Jun 25, 2012 1:53 PM CST
|I am a garden designer.|
Roses are not in my usual venue, as around here, on the ocean, north of Boston, they don't do all that well. They die. Well, not all, but most. We have uncovered freeze / thaw times in the winter.
I have tried many. Tired of spending the money, and tired of them dying and me looking bad. (!!!)
I just read the dreaded Knockout thread and hope that the several just mass planted for high color in between 2 rock outcroppings do what they are suppose to! (please, please, please - a ft of compost added)
Now I would like to find something that would do around here for other granite outcroppings. A draping rose. I often like to use things draping rather than climbing.
Have you any suggestions?
This pic has the idea. From an elderly lady's place around the corner. She thinks it is named 'something Perkins'. HOWEVER, it has not bloomed for the past 3 years. This year it has the look I am wanting. Small, multiflowered. Could it rebloom please?
Looking forward to your suggestions.
Jun 25, 2012 2:29 PM CST
|I have just the rose for you, Lilylady!|
Rose (Rosa 'Super Dorothy')
Your neighbor's rose is Dorothy Perkins, which does not rebloom and is highly susceptible to powdery mildew. I had several of them and I'm in the process of replacing them all with Super Dorothy, which does rebloom and doesn't succumb to mildew. It will "drape" beautifully.
It's available from a variety of sources, but Pickering is probably the best source. Pickering won't be taking orders again until September, but September isn't that far away.
Jun 25, 2012 3:45 PM CST
|I could help w/the cold hardiness, but I'm useless for you because I have no humidity, thus roses that suffer from mildew/rust/blackspot I can grow no problems because I don't have that problem at all. Not even my Austrian Copper, which is infamous for blackspot, has hardly any blackspot this year.|
Don't get discouraged by the Knockout thread. Knockouts are great for hard-to-grow areas, bloom continuously, and are very hardy. They should work just fine for your situation. It's just that some of us find 'em to be way over used, boring, and aren't "exciting" as far as roses go. But for an area that is hard to grow roses, they'd be a good choice. Also, some of the Canadian series of roses would be fine for your area. http://highcountryroses.com/Qs...
What I do for my roses (I believe I'm a zone colder than you due to you're right on the coast) is mulch the heck out of them. And since you're looking at just a few roses rather than tons & tons, get a rose collar (http://www.acehardwareoutlet.c...) for each rose. What I did in the beginning of my rose growing was to get the 2gal buckets that plants come in from Home Depot. cut off the bottom, wiggle the bucket over the rose so that the entire base was covered, then fill up the bucket w/mulch so that only the tips were showing. Worked like a charm. That's not practical for me now as I have over 300 roses and so I'd have buckets everywhere & it'd look really stupid. But if you put down plenty of mulch, that will help.
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Jun 25, 2012 4:50 PM CST
Sept is not that far away?
Yikes, where did the summer go? ;-)
Thank you for this suggestion. I just read up more about it and yes, it does sound like a good possibility.
Any idea if local nurseries ever stock it? I'll try checking around. But it does not look familiar to this area.
Here is part of where I might be using it. LARGE areas where I want several wild flowers covering some ledges, and rose, hydrangea petiolaris, variegated hops and other vines growing. NO, I don't want to be climbing up here to work very often!
Thank you Toni for your suggestions which I might try for other areas, but for here, no cones, mulching or care other than spring / fall cleaning is needed!
What roses of the Canadian series do you recommend? The estate next to this one needs some replacements. Ocean wind a factor there.
Jun 25, 2012 6:07 PM CST
|I've never seen it at a local nursery. There are other sources, such as Vintage Gardens and Rogue Valley Roses, which will send you the rose right away. It will be a small band, however, which might take years to catch up with the rose you buy from Pickering. There's also a red version of Dorothy, called Super Excelsa. It's more cherry-red than red, but it's as care-free as Super Dorothy.|
You won't have to climb anywhere to take care of Super Dorothy. It doesn't require deadheading and it probably will never need any pruning.
Another advantage it has over Dorothy Perkins is the scent. Dorothy has no scent, but Super Dorothy has a nice mild fragrance.
Jun 25, 2012 9:23 PM CST
I definately wasn't planning on DP as locally she had not seen a bloom in 3 yrs! But will order some SD. Hope the fall planting will live given my track record!
And pink will go better with other things planned for the area (pink cosmos and cleome area nearby too)
What does band mean please?
Jun 25, 2012 9:45 PM CST
|Bands are the small containers most own-root nurseries use for growing and selling their roses. It's the container on the right in this photo:|
I don't remember the exact dimensions, but they're probably something like 3 1/2" x 7" or ?????
Jun 30, 2012 12:07 PM CST
|I agree that roses in the Canadian series - roses bred by Svejda, Colicutt, Marshall, etc. - are a great place to start when looking for cold hardy roses. That said, I'm not sure it's a great place to start looking for cascading roses. |
I started out intending to flesh out Zuzu's idea of using rambling roses. Rosa wichurana, the species rose used to produce them, was really a good groundcover rose, but I ran into certain difficulties. I grew Super Dorothy in NJ and in five years its whiplike canes never got two inches off the ground. Sadly, it hardly grew at all, so I was not impressed with that cultivar. Here in Arizona I am growing Francoise Juranville. In late spring I ripped it out of the ground, buried it unceremoniously in another part of the garden and forgot it for a while. Two weeks later I remembered it. All the canes looked dead. Then I started to water it. Now it has several long, healthy canes. This makes it one of the more vigorous roses in my garden. It's whiplike canes could probably be trained to follow the landscape in precisely the way you wish, and its warm pink flowers are irresistible. It can suffer from mildew.
In search of good ramblers for this project I went to HelpMeFind and chose ramblers hardy to zone 6a and resistant to disease. This search produced only the setigera rambler described as "Moser House Shed Rose." Sadly, this rose is not in commerce. So I guess one would have to be ready to treat for mildew if the rambler idea were pursued.
There are a number of floribundas or hybrid musks that might possibly be worthy of consideration. I can remember seeing Iceberg used as a ground cover. Many rose gardeners consider Iceberg to be overused; but it still looks novel to people who don't grow roses. Similarly, The Fairy might have characteristics not too far afield from what you seek. If you seek dark red, Europeana might be a possibility.
I would like to suggest that there are a number of roses sold as ground cover roses that are bred for precisely this purpose and might work well. The first that comes to mind is Sea Foam, a tough, hardy rose that produces white flowers. Not sure whether it cascades enough; only boulders larger than about three or four feet high will really penetrate its facade. It produces flowers in abundance, and it has neat dark green glossy foliage complements them nicely and is dense enough to shade out weeds. I mention it because it provides a benchmark against which to measure roses in this category.
There are a number of other good ground-cover roses that are old and well proven, roses that are cascading, foliferous, and cold hardy: Red Ribbons, Immensee, White Flower Carpet, Surrey, Sussex, Kent are among these.
This year I purchased from Palatine Roses in Canada a rose that clearly has inherited some of the same wichurana characteristics that makes Sea Foam a good rose. Like Sea Foam it has dark foliage and almost unconditional vigor. It bears watermelon pink flowers in great profusion and over a long period of time. It's called Toscana Vigorosa and it's one of a series of Vigorosa roses introduced by Kordes. (Kordes' grandfather crossed Rosa rugosa with Rosa wichurana to produce Max Graf, a vigorous and foliferous ground-cover rose that essentially created the category. My guess is that many of the roses in the Vigorosa series make special use of that cross. In any case, Kordes has a long history of producing extraordinarily tough, cold-hardy roses that should be well suited to coastal Maine.) I would recommend Toscana Vigorosa without reservation if it were not that the flowers fade quickly and I don't like the look of the plant at this point.
Kordes' history of producing tough roses along with my own experience with Toscana Vigorosa suggests to me that roses in the Vigorosa series could be ideal for your project. Finally, breeders Poulsen, de Ruiter, and Olesen have done a lot of work in this area, too. One can sift through their work at HelpMeFind.com.
I know there are a few very different ideas in here: I hope you find some of this to be helpful.
Jul 2, 2012 12:41 PM CST
|Bobbie, isn't Steve a great resource? |
The Sea Foam rose he suggested would look beautiful cascading over those boulders. The color would look natural, I think.
Steve, you are definitely helping me fill out my next Palatine order.
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
Jul 2, 2012 2:01 PM CST
|Did anyone suggest Red Cascade? The database says it's hardy enough for you.|
Jul 2, 2012 3:03 PM CST
|Thank you for your suggestions, Steve. I have done some more studying. Sure is getting confusing!|
For example, it seems that many landscape ground covers grow only 2 ft x 3 ft? (Vigorosa series)
I have found a source for Dorothy Perkins and Excelsa (EDIT - wrong! meant Super Dorothy and Super Excelsa) and Cape Diamond, possibly Climbing Pinkie available now, but darn it is a 2.5 hr drive one way. 5 hrs just driving and of course a couple hours there. But at least a possibility. (Southern Mass)
And a nursery that I buy from can order from them IF they sell out of the recently stocked July order just rec'd . Seems I was just 5 days late for that order.
I have been learning a little more than I really wanted to know but you know how that is, a gardener's appetite for plants is a never ending journey!
Here is one that is in bloom on another estate. I think it is a one time bloomer though and faded after a week. It is hovering a stone wall but sends out long canes that I have to keep clipped (someone planted it in the wrong place, or current owner would rather another look (the current one)
Might try cuttings from the above (what the heck, I've done it before!)
I thank you all for your help.
Jul 2, 2012 3:07 PM CST
CindiKS said:Bobbie, isn't Steve a great resource?
And this forum is a wealth of helpful knowledge.
And Sea Foam is a pretty one. But...white with ocean humidity and the rain we get in June makes white roses look like wet tissue paper - or brown!!! I might try one though. ;-)
So far I am up to 7 places in amongst the rocks!
Jul 2, 2012 3:51 PM CST
|Lilylady, don't buy Dorothy Perkins or Excelsa. They're once-bloomers, they have no fragrance, and they're highly susceptible to powdery mildew, and perhaps to other diseases in your climate. Look for Super Dorothy and Super Excelsa instead.|
You're right about the Vigorosa series being wrong for those locations. Even in California they never spread more than 2 or 3 feet. They would never "drape" properly.
Jul 2, 2012 5:02 PM CST
|Oooh, my mistake Zuzu. I meant to say Super Dorothy, as has been suggested. And Super Excelsa too!|
Jul 3, 2012 9:29 AM CST
zuzu said:Lilylady, don't buy Dorothy Perkins or Excelsa. They're once-bloomers, they have no fragrance, and they're highly susceptible to powdery mildew, and perhaps to other diseases in your climate. Look for Super Dorothy and Super Excelsa instead.
With all due respect, Zuzu - Your opinion I respect, your use of climbing roses I have been trying to emulate, and your success with the same I deeply envy... But... Different people have different experiences with the same roses.
It's true that Vigorosa roses and most groundcover roses will not produce any 'cascading' effect. That said, the canes on my Toscana Vigorosa are pretty thin, not quite so thin as those of most ramblers, but almost. They tend to grow out horizontally. In their first year they are already highly suggestive of ground covers, approaching four feet wide and not so much as two feet tall. Possibly,cool night time weather actually promotes growth. Or perhaps terrible conditions do. Mine are growing - with some soil amendment and supplemental water - where weeds fail. Perhaps the other Vigorosa roses behave differently.
I don't know why my Super Dorothy and Super Excelsa failed in NJ. They would have been on their own roots. I think they were small plants when they came from VG. Almost certainly they were not watered or fertilized enough. That said, Sophie's Rose grew marvelously under slightly worse conditions a few feet away. Whatever the reason, they were a complete failure in zone 6b. When I saw Super Dorothy growing at VG it was treated as a trailing plant and it was blooming. I photographed it competently; but it was one of the very few photos out of the several hundred I took that week that I could not bring myself to publish at RoseFile. So I cannot say I like the way it looks when competently grown as a trailing plant.
To Porkpal's point, I'm growing Red Cascade here and am happy with it. I grew it with some success in NJ, too. It's definitely an easy-care plant. I think it could be trained to trail nicely. It is almost evergreen here in zone 7b. It occurs to me that having leaf cover through much of the year would be a valuable trait in an effective ground cover plant. Finally, the dark red color of its blooms is great.
Though I've never grown it, I also like the idea of climbing Pinkie.
If the true cascading effect isn't important, one could simply use short roses such as miniature roses.
And after thinking about this for a while I'm starting have more respect for the use of honeysuckle. One wall in my garden is treated with Paul Transon and Lonicera Major Wheeler. Still waiting for it to take off. Check back in three or four years...
Jul 3, 2012 10:36 AM CST
|My Red Cascade trails of its own accord. It also keeps its leaves while its neighbors lose theirs to black spot, and it had at least a few blooms on it all last summer through Texas worst drought ever - with no additional watering. I love my Climbing Pinkies but they don't climb nor would they trail. They like to grow in a big heap and for some reason the ends of all the canes die back.|
Jul 3, 2012 10:39 AM CST
|Steve - I second the use of honeysuckle. Yes, it's invasive. Yes, it's a Triffid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...) but they smell wonderful, vine gorgeously, grow w/o any help, and are almost evergreen (even in my environment it's evergreen). Spring 2013 I will be pulling out that Cecile Brunner rose & redoing that area with the 2 honeysuckles I have (I have to move a few roses as they've outgrown the area I put them stupidly in... my Charles de Mills is the most thorniest rose I have & he wasn't supposed to be thorned at ALL, which is why I put him where I put him). I have a Purple Japanese honeysuckle & a Hall's honeysuckle in that area and both are friggin' weeds. I have to install an arbor or something to keep the thing from eating the house, unlike my other Hall's Honeysuckle on the other side of the house which is eating the house, or the one on the south side of the house that has grown up 12' this year. I'm thinking about mixing a Virginia Creeping vine so I have some awesome color in the fall.|
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/Tweet...
Jul 3, 2012 6:49 PM CST
|I hadn't thought about using honeysuckle. The two I have on one estate turn all mildewy ( I didn't plant them) . Now I am wondering if there are any that might not be. Was looking at wisteria, wondering today, should I or shouldn't I! I do have a climbing hydrangea already planted. Easy peasy thing with clean foliage and looks good even after bloom. Have then on 2 estates already (10 yrs).|
Monday the guys come, grub out what is left of the weeds and put down yds and yds of compost. I am hoping that it will act like a mulch for the weed seeds upheaved and will have pockets flagged for planting roses and vines. Then ledges for the ton of wildflower seeds I have been saving (with buying more). Also have 14 small red Daylilies for one section, Rudbeckia grandiflora and just the old black eyed susan for another; Feverfew, Greater Blue Lobelia for another ledge; Hesperus and Celandine for separate pockets; and Forget Me Nots for here there and everywhere!
I saved 2 sections of something I call Va Blue Creeper (something like that) which where already established.
The roses will have their rocks to climb/ramble cascade on, some near the above, and hopefully one section with just cultivar and another of mixed pinks (and hopefully seasons).
Yes the area is huge!
Jul 3, 2012 6:59 PM CST
porkpal said: I love my Climbing Pinkies but they don't climb nor would they trail. They like to grow in a big heap and for some reason the ends of all the canes die back.
I asked Roseland (Ma) for other suggestions for cascading, but got none. They thought Super Dorothy a good idea. Now they may be a little warmer than me being near Providence RI and nearer Cape Cod but at least it is fairly close. I am on Cape Ann (Ma = Mass), north of Boston.
Jul 3, 2012 8:14 PM CST
|I love wisteria, but the hesitation I have with wisteria is that it's difficult to change your mind. Once they get established, they are hard to remove. And they like to send out long runners and pop up other places. |
At the risk of complicating things even more, here's a list of a few more commercially available ramblers recommended for use as ground covers at HMF:
- Debutante - Walsh 1901 - Pink - Vigorous, Disease Resistant - Z4b - Once - Apple Fragrance
- Lens Pink, AKA Dentelle de Malines - Lens 1987 - Pale Pink --Z4b Once
- May Queen - Van Fleet 1898 - Pink - Disease Resistant - Z4b - Once - Apple Fragrance
- The Mother's Day Rose - Walsh 1901 - Disease Resistant, Vigorous - Z4b - Once - Apple Fragrance
The roses above are depicted completely covered with flowers. My own d observation is that once blooming roses tend to put on a much more glorious show when they bloom, making for much more garden impact. A rose with a few blossoms on it - in a landscape sense - frequently looks a little drab. Few repeat flowering roses, IMO, will produce a small fraction of the total number of blooms in a year that a modest once-flowering rose puts out in a few weeks. So I guess I might be inclined to choose a once-flowering rose.
White Flower Farm mixes roses with clematis. So maybe a fragrant white or pink rambler and a purple or blue clematis? Just a thought.