Daylilies forum: Seed Pod Degradation

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 26, 2019 8:52 PM CST
beenthere said:I've been harvesting pods any time after 35 days. From what I've read, from the links @Sooby shared from the AHS, the embryo is mature by them. I've gotten well over 80% germination the last year doing this and it eliminates losing seed to pod degradation..... this is a seedling from one of those early harvest pods, Paradise Princess X Helicopter. Seeding is 9 months old, bloom is under three inches. Wanted to see what Helicopter could do with the darklings and I'm excited for the crosses to come.
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I was harvesting pods today and this post keep coming to my mind. I found several pods that I feel sure were nice fat pods at one time but after a big rain yesterday when I harvested the pods today there was almost nothing left to harvest, they had degenerated to the point where they were tissue paper thin and the seeds inside were mushy.
So this really has me thinking that even if a pod does not pop open, the color change should be a tip the pod is getting ready. I know keeping a record of the date pollinated is suppose to help with this problem, but how do I know one pod from the other a month and a half later? So is there some other tip for knowing when the pod is ripe? Can I thump it like a water melon, check the stem like on a pear, waxy sheen like on an apple, smell it like a peach?

Name: Tina
Greenup, Ky (Zone 6b)
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beenthere
Aug 27, 2019 3:39 AM CST
I certainly can't tell by looking or by touch. But I mark every cross, as I make them, and put the pollination date on the back of the tag. That's the only way I could keep track. Takes a few more seconds but saves me a lot of guesswork. I look for any signs such as browning spots or seams, if I observe those and the date on the tag is at least 35 days old, then I harvest. Interested in what the more experienced folk say, good question Larry.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Aug 27, 2019 5:12 AM CST
@beenthere can you show me where it says 35 days? That's too short according to the AHS 2002 Handbook, which says 46 to 56 days with a median of about 52 days for dips. That doesn't mean the seeds may not be viable before that but it is probably better to leave them longer.

Quoting from the chapter on anatomy and physiology: "The capsule may begin to split at the tip while still green. In some cultivars the green color fades and the top of the fruit becomes gray before fissures appear. Within a few days, depending on climatic conditions, the capsule is fully dry, allowing seeds to shed. In some tetraploid clones the fruit wall is so massive that force by hand is necessary to remove the seeds."

The capsule (pod) can certainly mature very quickly. Last week I cut some fat green pods off a clump and left some. I was guessing the maturity based on when it usually flowers but wondered if I was too soon but when I looked at the clump a week later the remaining pods on it had turned brown and opened.

Larry, do you note FFO and last flower open for pod parent cultivars? That should give you an approximate idea of timing if you don't want to tag pods.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 27, 2019 6:02 AM CST
I do try to make a photo and note the date on the FFO, but not so much the last flower to open. Still, with rebloom and instant rebloom I don't see that of being mulch help to me in determining the age of my pods. When I used tags I could write the date of pollination on the tags and keep up, but that was way to much trouble and using beads and gem clips is so much more enjoyable during hot humid summer days.
I actually think that 35 days came from a post from Maurice from about work done by Stout I think concerning the maturity of the embryo.
Name: Tina
Greenup, Ky (Zone 6b)
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beenthere
Aug 27, 2019 7:00 AM CST
@Sooby Actually first got the idea from the AHS Griesbach PDF "Some Notes on Harvesting and Storing of Daylily Seeds". Which led me to read "Embryo Development and Seed set in crosses for Triploid Daylilies" and that led to PDF "Germination of Hemerocallis Seeds as Influenced by Seed Development and Temperature Treatments" at Semantic Scholar. This one has cool pictures of Xray daylily embryo's at different stages. Sorry I don't know how to share a link. But if you google the titles, should be able to find them.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 27, 2019 7:08 AM CST
"Name: Maurice
admmad
Aug 6, 2016 3:00 PM CDT
. According to Arisumi and others, the seeds may not be mature/viable until after day 35. Therefore, even if the seeds are black they may not be viable if they are less than 35 days old (at typical summer temperatures for Maryland/Chicago/etc.).
It may be important to note that even though seeds at least 35 days old may germinate it is possible that fewer than the normal number (that would have germinated at 50-60 days old) will germinate.
Maurice"
This was one of the post I thought the thirty five days came from, I see it was Arisumi and not Stout that did the study.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Aug 27, 2019 7:13 AM (+)]
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Name: Tina
Greenup, Ky (Zone 6b)
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beenthere
Aug 27, 2019 7:25 AM CST
The last article takes it all a bit further. Fun reading, Larry.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 27, 2019 7:30 AM CST
Here is the link:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.o...
Name: Tina
Greenup, Ky (Zone 6b)
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beenthere
Aug 27, 2019 7:35 AM CST
Thank you, Larry!
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Aug 27, 2019 8:10 AM CST
Last year, I had two seed pods on Raspberry Winter from two different pollen parents. Both turned brown and started to crack open early, one at 35 days and the other at 36 days. I picked both, and got 12 seeds from the 35 day old pod and 9 seeds from the 36 day old pod. From the first 12 seeds, I got 8 good seedlings (9 germinated, but one was white), and from the 9 seeds, I got 4 good seedlings. Seven seeds germinated, but 3 did not survive past a few weeks. All seedlings were planted out in the spring and are doing very well.

That was the only plant last season that had pods ripen so early.
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 27, 2019 8:10 AM CST
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.o...
My points taken from the article:
1. "In Hemerocallis, capsules are formed continuously from May to October, and thus the date of seed maturity varies over a period of months."
2. "On a branched scape, flowers and capsules often develop simultaneously. Therefore, on any particular seed harvest date, the
seed development stage can vary widely. Furthermore, when capsules mature on a branched scape, their development is delayed as compared to that of single capsule developing on the scape."
3. "More than 93% of seeds from mature capsules germinated in 18 days"...
4. "However, these black seeds were not mature, since they started to shrivel when they lost
moisture and they failed to germinate."
I found this very interesting, I have had seed that looked beautiful shrivel as they dried and I felt they were not viable, I guess they were not mature enough when harvested.
Name: Sue Petruske
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
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petruske
Aug 27, 2019 8:19 AM CST
I always make a chart of what has been pollenated. This year I included a column for a date to start watching for maturity. Plus a column for the harvest date and # of growth days. Thought it would at least let me know which pods to check more frequently when it may be close to collection day. And give me some insight as to how many days it takes to mature. Although I'm sure weather will change that somewhat.

Thumb of 2019-08-27/petruske/3a812f

[Last edited by petruske - Aug 27, 2019 8:20 AM (+)]
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Name: Tina
Greenup, Ky (Zone 6b)
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beenthere
Aug 27, 2019 8:19 AM CST
I store my seeds in a condiment cup on a bed of vermiculite. They are stored dry in the fridge till I'm ready to wet the vermiculite and start stratification. They all shrivel, some more than others. But I never thought that denoted viability.
Thumb of 2019-08-27/beenthere/2d81d7
Sorry so fuzzy. New, used camera on the way!

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 27, 2019 8:31 AM CST
I think the degree the seeds shrivel is the important thing. Your seeds don't appear to have shriveled all that much, they look fine.
I use similar cups, but I just dry mine for one day in the cup, nothing added. Then I am always eager to pop them in the fridge, normally in a 2" X 3" plastic baggie, with a few sprays of water. Let them stay in the fridge for one month. This year I am adding some vermiculite (1 teaspoon) and just making that damp, to some of the later harvested seeds. I have yet to pull any of the seeds from the fridge that had the vermiculite added, but time is getting close...Sept. 01.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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touchofsky
Aug 27, 2019 8:31 AM CST
Sue,
Great chart! I just keep notes the old fashioned way, in a three ringed binder with lined paper in it. I write the date I made the cross, the parents and then the date I picked the pod and how many seeds were in it. I have only been doing crosses for three years, but I have kept all my notes. It is interesting to look back and see what worked and what didn't, especially now that the seedlings from my first year of crosses are blooming.

Tina,
That is an interesting way to store seeds. I have never seen it done that way before. I ate out yesterday, and we got a lot of those little condiment cups, but I never thought to save them for seeds. Next time I will save them. If my son-in-law is with us, he will surely roll his eyes. Rolling on the floor laughing as I collect the garbage off the table to take home.
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Aug 27, 2019 8:40 AM CST
What's up with everybody getting new/used cameras? Are they so expensive that you buy them that way? Or rare/hard to find?

I are sooooo smart!
Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Aug 27, 2019 8:44 AM CST
Valerie, you can teach that young whipper-snapper something Thumbs up Rolling on the floor laughing
I are sooooo smart!
Name: Tina
Greenup, Ky (Zone 6b)
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beenthere
Aug 27, 2019 9:07 AM CST
I like the older models that actually have a viewfinder. Many times you can find new old Rolling on the floor laughing stock really cheap on Ebay. I'm an old cheap fart myself, should be no surprise.
Name: Tina
Greenup, Ky (Zone 6b)
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beenthere
Aug 27, 2019 9:11 AM CST
Valerie, the condiment cups are bought in bulk from Ebay also. We just never eat out anymore and I've seen so many complain of rotting seeds in the plastic baggies. So, I've never used the baggies, and these work fine.
[Last edited by beenthere - Aug 27, 2019 9:12 AM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 27, 2019 9:29 AM CST
My limit for a camera was $400.00, found what met my needs and most of my wants for $300.00 used, saved at least $100.00, and the camera to me looks like new and it works like new...so far. It did come with a warranty!

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