Plant ID forum: What kind of tree?

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Name: Lee Anne Stark
Brockville, Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
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threegardeners
Jul 11, 2012 11:17 AM CST
Pretty unknown tree.
Thumb of 2012-07-11/threegardeners/335f39
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jul 11, 2012 12:02 PM CST
Tilia x euchlora looks good ..

http://www.rogerstreesandshrubs.com/gallery/DisplayBlock~bid...

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/Home/Plants/Ornamental-Grou...

http://www.goldenhillplants.com/tilia-x-euchlora-8191-0.html

http://www.zahrada-cs.com/a/cz/2692-tilia-x-euchlora-l%c3%ad...
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Jul 11, 2012 12:03 PM (+)]
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Name: Lee Anne Stark
Brockville, Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
Perpetually happy!
Forum moderator Tip Photographer I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Critters Allowed Cottage Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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threegardeners
Jul 11, 2012 12:08 PM CST
I agree you're the best Janet!!
Name: Lee Anne Stark
Brockville, Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
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threegardeners
Jul 11, 2012 12:09 PM CST
I got 2 entries in the database, which is the right one?
http://garden.org/plants/search/text.php?q=Tilia+x+euchlora
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
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KentPfeiffer
Jul 11, 2012 1:11 PM CST

Moderator

Hi Janet,

I'm curious why you think it is Tilia x euchora as opposed to Tilia cordata or even Tilia americana which are much more widely distributed and planted (especially in the the case of Tilia cordata) in North America?
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jul 11, 2012 1:46 PM CST
Hi Kent, no reason, all I said was it looked good, not that it was the one. I have no idea which are planted more widely there, but it was a good clue whichever it is. nodding
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Jul 11, 2012 1:50 PM (+)]
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Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
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KentPfeiffer
Jul 11, 2012 2:03 PM CST

Moderator

Ah, that's good. It's clearly a Tilia, but I didn't think the pictures showed enough to say which species. Just wondered what I was missing.

Thanks,

Kent
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jul 11, 2012 2:12 PM CST
If the photo of a leaf on this edu. site is an indication of what the leaves are usually like on Tilia americana, I doubt it is that from this description ..

Leaf: Alternate, simple, ovate to cordate, 5 to 6 inches long, with serrate margins, pinnately veined, base is unequally cordate, green above and paler below.


http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Tilia cordata, how does that compare? Other photos I found named T. cordata look just like Tilia x euchlora but you have to be careful they are correctly identified.

Leaf: Alternate, simple, ovate to cordate, 2 to 4 inches long, with serrate margins, pinnately veined, inequilateral base, green above and paler below.


http://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?...

Aren't the leaves much more deeply cut at the base where the petiole joins on cordata?

http://www.garten.cz/a/cz/2665-tilia-cordata-lipa-malolista/

If these photos are correct, leaf venation and leaf shape look to match Tilia x euchora best ..

http://www.garten.cz/a/cz/2692-tilia-x-euchlora-lipa-zelena/

http://www.garten.cz/a/cz/2665-tilia-cordata-lipa-malolista/

http://www.garten.cz/a/cz/2376-tilia-americana-lipa-americka...

I always look very closely at leaf shape and venation. There's several Tilia species on the same site so I imagine they know what they are doing ..

http://www.about-garden.com/se/en/fotoa-tilia/
[Last edited by JRsbugs - Jul 11, 2012 2:14 PM (+)]
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Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
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Skiekitty
Jul 11, 2012 2:22 PM CST
Probably a Little Leaf Linden. Very very common around here. Smells WONDERFUL when in bloom.. *swoon* Funny thing is that when they're little, they're sometimes called Menorah Trees because they way their branches are very left-right versus all the way around the trunk. Very uniform in shape, gets to be like 40' & like 30' around. Love these trees.
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Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
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KentPfeiffer
Jul 11, 2012 3:33 PM CST

Moderator

Hi Janet,

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other about which species of Tilia it is. Just going off the pictures, Tilia x euchlora is as good a match as any other species of Tilia, better than most.

But, Tilia americana is a wildly variable species, so much so that it has been confounding botanists for decades. Just for entertainment, look at all of the species of Tilia that were described at one time or another, but are now lumped into just three varieties of Tilia americana:

http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic...
http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic...
http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic...

If you ask a forester how to tell Tilia americana from Tilia cordata the answer will be something along the lines of 'americana has big leaves with oblique bases and cordata has small leaves with cordate bases'. However, leaf size and shape is all over the place with Tilia americana (http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/t/tilame/tilame1.html) even on the same tree. They vary quite a bit with Tilia cordata (http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/t/tilcor/tilcor1.html) as well. I would guess the same is true for Tilia x euchlora. Just as an example, its leaves are described as being cordate on the UConn Plant Database site, but the accompanying pictures show leaves with oblique bases! http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/t/tileuc/tileuc1.html

I hope this long and rambling post isn't taken as a disagreement over the ID of the tree. I just question whether there is really enough information in the pictures to say with any certainty which species of Tilia it is.

Pictures of the flowers would help (Tilia americana *usually* has whitish flowers while T. cordata and T x euchlora *usually* have yellowish flowers), but it's obviously too late for that this year Shrug!




Name: Lee Anne Stark
Brockville, Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
Perpetually happy!
Forum moderator Tip Photographer I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Critters Allowed Cottage Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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threegardeners
Jul 11, 2012 3:36 PM CST
Would it make a difference that I'm in Canada?

Do I have to wait until next spring for flowers or can I stick it in the Database as Tilia x euchlora?
Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jul 11, 2012 4:27 PM CST
It might make a difference Lee Anne, but can't be said for sure, Tilia x euchlora is said to be hardy to zone 3 where the other two are zone 4 so it might have been a better choice.

a hybrid developed in the 19th century, parentage is undecided; it is believed to be T. cordata and T. clasystyia
hardy to zone 3


It's been around a long time!

No problem Kent, it's all educational. I can see the problems. I have a feeling the angle of the photos showing the leaves may be giving a false impression of the shape of the base.

Lee Anne, I guess it's up to you, if you can get photos of flowers next year then do. If you are pulling at the leash to put it in the gallery, you could move it if flowers do prove it to be different.

Flowers of..

Tilia x euchlora: yellowish white flowers in cymes of 3 to 7 flowers

'Cyme' does fit the structure of the fruits .. and they look to have 3 to 7.

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/terminf1.htm

It's in Ontario ..

http://luirig.altervista.org/schedenam/fnam.php?taxon=Tilia+...

Tilia cordata: small, individual flowers in loose drooping clusters, flower clusters with a leaf-like bract, light yellow or creamy flower color

There is a photo of flowers of cordata, they look to be in more or less level clusters ..

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/plants/t/tilcor/tilcor1.html

Also in Ontario .. leaves look a little more rounded, but that might vary, but the flower structure doesn't look much different on this site.

http://luirig.altervista.org/schedenam/fnam.php?taxon=tilia%...

The decision is yours Lee Anne! Hilarious!


Name: Lee Anne Stark
Brockville, Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
Perpetually happy!
Forum moderator Tip Photographer I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Critters Allowed Cottage Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Keeps Goats Keeper of Poultry Frogs and Toads Charter ATP Member Region: Canadian
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threegardeners
Jul 11, 2012 4:50 PM CST
I have a better shot of leaves if it might help...

Name: Janet Super Sleuth
Near Lincoln UK
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JRsbugs
Jul 11, 2012 5:10 PM CST
If you want a personal opinion, I say Tilia x euchlora still fits best, in my mind at least.

There's photos of the structure of the way flowers are held as can be seen in the photos of T. cordata which can be enlarged .. they look to be in flat almost umbels, more compact unlike those on yours which look more splayed as in a cyme.

http://luirig.altervista.org/cpm/albums/bot2009-herm/herm273...

http://luirig.altervista.org/cpm/albums/bot-propetto2/009-ti...

That is only my opinion though. Hilarious!
Name: Lee Anne Stark
Brockville, Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
Perpetually happy!
Forum moderator Tip Photographer I helped plan and beta test the plant database. Critters Allowed Cottage Gardener I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Lover of wildlife (Raccoon badge) Keeps Goats Keeper of Poultry Frogs and Toads Charter ATP Member Region: Canadian
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threegardeners
Jul 11, 2012 5:13 PM CST
ok then...Tilia x euchlora it is!! Off to upload pictures.

I miss the days when a tree was just a tree..."there's an Elm tree", or a Maple tree. Now it's "there's some kind of about 50 kinds of Elm trees" .
Name: Natalie
North Central Idaho (Zone 7a)
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Natalie
Jul 12, 2012 3:10 PM CST
Skiekitty said:Probably a Little Leaf Linden. Very very common around here. Smells WONDERFUL when in bloom.. *swoon* Funny thing is that when they're little, they're sometimes called Menorah Trees because they way their branches are very left-right versus all the way around the trunk. Very uniform in shape, gets to be like 40' & like 30' around. Love these trees.


I've got two of these in my yard. The one in the backyard was planted by our renter, and he told us it was a Little Leaf Linden. It was maybe 10 or 15 feet tall 10 years ago when we moved back in, and now it's HUGE! I'm guessing it's at least 35 feet. When we had to take 2 pines out of the front yard, we decided to buy another one because of how fast the one out back has grown. It's really growing fast (we bought a larger one and paid a larger price too!), and we've always called it the Menorah Tree because of the shape when we got it! I thought it was so funny that you mentioned that they are called that when they are younger. By the time we noticed the Menorah shape, it had been in the ground for a few days, and we just hoped for the best! After 3 years, it's starting to fill out in a more rounded shape, which we're glad to see.
Natalie
Name: Susan
Southeast NE (Zone 5b)
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stilldew
Jul 15, 2012 1:55 AM CST
I live across the street from a park with many of these trees. I've always just heard them called Lindens. They are very fragrant in late June and people often think it's the lilies in my garden they are smelling when really it is the trees. Most noticable in the evenings. They smell like vanilla to me. Then this time of the year they shed little brown dried leaves all over the place. Not sure if they are really leaves. Maybe flower pods? I was told they were brought to town by the Germans when they settled this area of town which was originally a dairy farm. They do get very large when old.

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