Daylilies forum: Problems with making crosses with your conversions?

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Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Oct 31, 2019 7:55 AM CST
A very interesting analysis:

https://heavenlygardens.com/PL...

Could this be why crosses using conversions can be difficult?

[Last edited by bobjax - Oct 31, 2019 7:59 AM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Vermont (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Region: Vermont Garden Procrastinator Seed Starter Plant and/or Seed Trader
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SueVT
Oct 31, 2019 10:43 AM CST
Right, I read this article last winter, when I was getting interested in Heavenly New Frontiers. I ended up buying lots of seed crosses with HNF, most will be blooming this coming year.

Are you making conversions yourself? I suppose, if you had a new conversion, you could trying crossing with known other ploidies, to determine its ploidy, rather than getting it tested. But that wouldn't identify Pentaploid I presume?

Suevt on the LA
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Oct 31, 2019 12:20 PM CST
SueVT said: Right, I read this article last winter, when I was getting interested in Heavenly New Frontiers. I ended up buying lots of seed crosses with HNF, most will be blooming this coming year.

Are you making conversions yourself? I suppose, if you had a new conversion, you could trying crossing with known other ploidies, to determine its ploidy, rather than getting it tested. But that wouldn't identify Pentaploid I presume?



I'm with you a 100%. Instead of buying the actual conversion, why not get a child of a conversion. You get the bloodline. Example: I was going to buy Tet RFK. Guy Pierce told me that the children coming out of that plant currently seem to have high rust resistance. Yahoo! Jackpot! But what if I bought it off lily auction for $80 and that fan I got was a different ploidy? I spoke with a breeder today who told me they tried creating conversions. She said the results were so inconsistent they gave up. Think I will waste my time, I mean constructively spend my time, Smiling just hunting down known rust resistant daylilies and breed them. The reason for the call to that breeder today was I found three old ones on her site, rated 1 for rust-resistance.

We spend so much on daylilies to have a ploidy tested by Gossard for $25 seems cheap.

But nothing is guaranteed. I pulled two which are highly rated for rust resistance daylilies that got reasonably heavy rust this year.

http://members.tripod.com/~h_s...
[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 1, 2019 5:55 AM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Vermont (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Region: Vermont Garden Procrastinator Seed Starter Plant and/or Seed Trader
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SueVT
Oct 31, 2019 2:56 PM CST
Yes, $25 is very reasonable, considering! And yes, since Gossard is saying that different fans from a conversion can have different ploidy, it kind of leaves you out there wondering. So I suppose that if someone has been growing a clump with established ploidy, it is a good bet. Smiling

Conversion is very interesting, but the detailed accounts I have read of how this is done, I find hair-raising. I tease my husband about the Hazmat suit I am getting him for Christmas..

Beyond ploidy, I understand that some cultivars are simply rust-resistant. You have to wonder why your dls were listed as rust resistant, when they are not! Perhaps rust is evolving into a more persistent type....Since I am in Vermont, I admit I have not paid much attention to this factor.
Suevt on the LA
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Oct 31, 2019 3:33 PM CST
SueVT said:Yes, $25 is very reasonable, considering! And yes, since Gossard is saying that different fans from a conversion can have different ploidy, it kind of leaves you out there wondering. So I suppose that if someone has been growing a clump with established ploidy, it is a good bet. Smiling

Conversion is very interesting, but the detailed accounts I have read of how this is done, I find hair-raising. I tease my husband about the Hazmat suit I am getting him for Christmas..

Beyond ploidy, I understand that some cultivars are simply rust-resistant. You have to wonder why your dls were listed as rust-resistant, when they are not! Perhaps rust is evolving into a more persistent type....Since I am in Vermont, I admit I have not paid much attention to this factor.


Yea, I totally understand. My wife won't buy me a Hazmat suit, so I'm out of luck.

For example, Siloam Double Classic says "shows resistance" with a 1.5 rating out of 5. So that .5 means it might get rust, I guess. I am now only going after 1.0's now.

On Gossard's site, he actually says certain ones are very resistant, one of only 3 breeders I know that says that. But in the same breath, he might say they are a hard dormant. Good for Vermont, not good for Florida. Glare
[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 1, 2019 5:51 AM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Oct 31, 2019 3:46 PM CST
I would not pay any attention to the .5 difference in rust ratings. In my opinion the ratings are not that concise. I bought quite a few plants with rust ratings of 1.0, some of them would be hard to distinguish from those rated much higher some years. I do agree that those rated 1.0 are generally more resistant than rated 5.0.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Oct 31, 2019 6:30 PM CST
Some of the rust ratings are based on one plant in one garden and since the severity of rust is highly influenced by environmental conditions, ratings should be more reliable for susceptibility than resistance. Also there are several different races of daylily rust and a cultivar's susceptibility or resistance may vary somewhat depending what race or races are present in a given garden. I would not read much into a rating of resistance based on limited evaluations.
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 1, 2019 6:18 AM CST
sooby said:Some of the rust ratings are based on one plant in one garden and since the severity of rust is highly influenced by environmental conditions, ratings should be more reliable for susceptibility than resistance. Also there are several different races of daylily rust and a cultivar's susceptibility or resistance may vary somewhat depending what race or races are present in a given garden. I would not read much into a rating of resistance based on limited evaluations.


Which have you found to be resistant in your garden?

It's a starting point. And, yes, rust varies. I certainly experienced that. But by selecting ones that are labeled as resistant I have ended up with very few (3) of those labeled resistant that got rust. It seems like many daylilies I got from random places, that I did not check first, got rust and I had to pitch them.

Plus a person cannot make a judgment in one year on a clean plant. Brian Reeder, a noted expert in the fight to develop rust-resistant daylilies, tests for multiple years before he declares they are resistant. I saw an excellent study recently where the researcher studied the "All American" Series. He studied them over a few years and found the rust resistance changed for a number of reasons. He did finally declare two resistant. But they might not be resistant in my garden, but I will try them.
[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 1, 2019 7:08 AM (+)]
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Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 1, 2019 6:32 AM CST
Seedfork said:I would not pay any attention to the .5 difference in rust ratings. In my opinion the ratings are not that concise. I bought quite a few plants with rust ratings of 1.0, some of them would be hard to distinguish from those rated much higher some years. I do agree that those rated 1.0 are generally more resistant than rated 5.0.


Which are resistant in your garden?

Agreed. I buy and expect to pitch. Show no misery. They get rust, they go.

Except, the tough thing is seedlings. It is hard to throw out a seedling which is great but has a little rust. Especially if it is a dormant that can be grown "Up North". Smiling I think, well, 99% of the daylilies get rust in the rust belt, many people spray, so why not keep the seedling (for someone else) who doesn't have issues with rust. Just not in my garden. I don't spray because my goal is to collect and breed rust-resistant evergreens.

About the 1 versus 1.5 versus 5 rating, don't know how anyone could say it is 1 versus 1.1. When I find one that gets rust I submit that to the database at least in the mid 2's so people are warned.



[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 1, 2019 6:46 AM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Nov 1, 2019 6:48 AM CST
I have twenty seven 1.0 rated plants, others with "low" ratings also, the best I can say is they have all shown rust and sometimes some of them show really noticable rust. Still I do believe they do much better than ones with a 4 to 5 rating.
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 1, 2019 7:25 AM CST
Seedfork said:I have twenty seven 1.0 rated plants, others with "low" ratings also, the best I can say is they have all shown rust and sometimes some of them show really noticable rust. Still I do believe they do much better than ones with a 4 to 5 rating.


Gosh, Larry. You are one of the most respected people of this forum. I eagerly read every one of your posts that I see. I would love, love, love to get a couple of your suggestions. Even one. I'll buy it. Thanks!

I was speaking to a breeder yesterday. She said it is amazing how she can walk among infected plants and occasionally there is one that is completely clean with rust filled plants on both sides. When asked which ones. She couldn't remember. Crying She has 1000's of plants.

Trevia: I spoke to a big reseller who said if he gets a rusty plant, he cuts it down to 1inch and put 70% -100% bleach on it and repeats the same with the plants on both sides. He said he uses the "good, strong bleach". No more rust on that plant for the rest of the season. Smiling Had another breeder says he "cuts it back to dirt" and in weeks has a beautiful plant. Another major seller conquers rust by strengthening the plant with micro-organisms and special feeding, so the plant can fight the rust. Of course, I have heard many different spraying programs.
[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 1, 2019 7:30 AM (+)]
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Name: Mary
Crown Point, Indiana (Zone 5b)
josieskid
Nov 1, 2019 7:54 AM CST
I kept thinking I saw rust this summer on many of my daylilies. I started reading on here and googling about it. I read somewhere that rust will easily rub off on your fingers, and there was a picture of someones hand with what looked like daylily pollen on their fingers. I didn't have that on my daylily leaves, just spots, so maybe it was leaf streak.

Since then, all those ugly, rusty looking leaves have died off and new leaves appeared in their place. The plants look beautiful, and healthy! Just in time for winter! Crying Thumbs down nodding
I are sooooo smart!
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Nov 1, 2019 8:26 AM CST
bobjax,
Well I'll give you two. I did some crosses with 'Mister Lucky' 1.3 rating and 'Gypsy Rose Lee' 1.0 rating and the results produced a seedling that was one of those plants that the dark green foliage stood out from a distance as being far above the others. I picked those two because in my garden the foliage tended to look really nice on a regular basis.
I got four clumps from that seedling and potted two clumps and planted two clumps in separate places in the garden to see how they do.
Edited to add:
I have had some plants get really rusty, and I cut the foliage down really low and the foliage came back and stayed clean for most of the rest of the season, I did treat it for rust when I cut it but don't remember exactly what I used. I have read you could do this once a year but it was recommended not to do it more often, they did not give a reason, but I assumed it would weaken the plant too much if done more than once a year.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Nov 1, 2019 8:32 AM (+)]
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Name: Greg Bogard
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7a)
Sscape
Nov 1, 2019 8:39 AM CST
The problem I have found with TET conversions is: hardiness. I am on my third purchase of TET Connie Burton. The first bloomed, then promptly died after the summer heat started. The second lasted through Winter, but came up as a clump of "grass" the next Spring---then died. The third is doing much better. After the first Winter it looked pretty rough, but did grow a bit over the summer. The next Spring it looked really rough, but got over it and grew a bit more. This past Spring I thought it had died, and was going to toss it, when lo-and-behold, both fans came back. It had gone Dormant. I hesitated to use it because I thought it may have converted back to the diploid form. However, when I tried it on some dips, it did nothing. But, pollen put on tetraploids--made pods! So I started using it around mid-season, and got so many seeds I put some in my Specials on the Auction. The flowers this year were larger than in the past, and with very heavy substance, so I think it is going to be a winner for me---finally.
This past summer I got a clump of TET Evelyn Gates from my dear friend Peggy Jeffcoat at Singing Oakes Garden. It is in a large pot next to the house by my back door where I can keep an eye on it. I'm Xing my fingers it will make it thru the Winter, so I can use it for Xing next Summer.
Daylily Rust is a hard thing to deal with. Some cultivars are not resistant at all and are, or nearly so, destroyed by it. Others have some resistance, but still can get it. This year was a fairly bad one for rust in my garden. A sudden week of 93+ temps in early June weakened the plants. They recovered, but then later it got hot again and very DRY. I had to water ($190.00 water bill August), and there is no way to water so many plants without getting at least some wet. I watered in the morning in hopes that all would be dry by night. It did not help. weakened by drought, and increased humidity, with night temps in the 70's (perfect growing temp for fungus), the rust exploded into the worst it has been since it first came around. It did not help that it had a head start this year because of a very mild last Winter, and the purchase of new plants from Florida last year and this past one. Rust resistance evaluation needs to be done over more than a few years. Weather plays a big role in it.
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 1, 2019 10:18 AM CST
Seedfork said:bobjax,
Well I'll give you two. I did some crosses with 'Mister Lucky' 1.3 rating and 'Gypsy Rose Lee' 1.0 rating and the results produced a seedling that was one of those plants that the dark green foliage stood out from a distance as being far above the others. I picked those two because in my garden the foliage tended to look really nice on a regular basis.


Thanks Larry! I'll hunt for them and order them. I'll see how they do my garden. I appreciate the tip. Thanks!

For pretty faces, I have heard more than once that Whale Tails is proving to be resistance, plus Tet RFK and her kids. These are others I will test. I local guy and regular seller on lily auction said the only two resistant around here is Orange Blossom Trail and Insider Trailing. I just planted Orange Blossom Trail. (Got it from Rita's Bees Daylilies, an excellent, very reasonable new seller.) Had Insider Trading for a year. It is very clean.

Bob
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 1, 2019 10:38 AM CST
Sscape said:The problem I have found with TET conversions is......


Glad TET Connie Burton is working. Heard Tet RFK produces resistant kids, so was going to get it, but it is a dormant which only lasts a short time here. So, like other "northern" plants I have grown down here, I would grow it in the shade and on the north side. Just wanted the pollen for 2-3 years. But too risky so I changed my mind.


[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 1, 2019 4:00 PM (+)]
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Name: Greg Bogard
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7a)
Sscape
Nov 1, 2019 1:49 PM CST
Bleach will kill the spores on the surface of the plant, but does nothing to the part of the fungus that is in the tissue. It's only a temporary solution that slightly delays it's emergence.
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 1, 2019 3:03 PM CST
Sscape said:Bleach will kill the spores on the surface of the plant, but does nothing to the part of the fungus that is in the tissue. It's only a temporary solution that slightly delays it's emergence.


I got that wrong. Too much info. Brain going into overload. Smiling Thanks for the correction.
It's for shipping and the bleach is for bacteria. I do the 10%, 10 minute thing, when I recieve them nowadays. Then I rinse, then soak as normal. I have read "soak", then "don't soak" because the bacteria will travel in water. Different soaking solutions; different soaking times.

I will modify the post above. I don't want to mislead anyone.

Here is the bleach and fungicide soak for shipping (not really about rust, with the right fungicide maybe it could):

https://garden.org/ideas/view/...
[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 1, 2019 4:05 PM (+)]
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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Nov 5, 2019 6:36 PM CST

Moderator

This thread has several different topics going at once. I split off the dormant discussion to a new separate thread. Here is a link ....
The thread "Observations of Dormancy" in Daylilies forum

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