Daylilies forum: Fertility in Bearded Daylilies Why are most pollen infertile Advice on F3 cross?

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Name: Jeff
Newaygo, Michigan (Zone 5a)
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goedric
Nov 16, 2019 6:32 AM CST
Hi All. Did a little searching and did not come up with much. It seems for most varieties that pollen is usually or always infertile. Was wondering if this is because he beards are somehow mutations of something involved in anther/pollen development.. or some other biochemical cause... or perhaps historical genetic constraints.

Any info appreciated. I am planning on starting quite a few F2 seedlings from bearded x non-bearded F1s where the F1s are Michaels Sword x non-bearded (crispate and spatulate) and the F2 pollen donors are unknown (most likely F1 sibs).

Any thoughs or advice appreciated on how best to move forward with getting bearded offspring in the F3...

Thx All!!!

ps, photo for attention only...



Thumb of 2019-11-16/goedric/e6c716

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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 16, 2019 10:00 AM CST
@goedric
It seems for most varieties that pollen is usually or always infertile. Was wondering if this is because he beards are somehow mutations of something involved in anther/pollen development.. or some other biochemical cause... or perhaps historical genetic constraints.


The genetics of infertile pollen in daylilies has not been studied, (or at least published) to the best of my knowledge. So it is not known why many diploid daylilies with petal protrusions/excrescences also are pollen sterile. Although it is possible that the petal characteristic in some breeding lines is genetically linked to pollen sterility it is not likely. It is probable that due to inbreeding, the pollen sterility that is present in 'Bee's Bettie Sue' has spread and increased in frequency within that breeding line.

In other plant species pollen sterility can be a classical Mendelian (nuclear) mutation. That is it may be inherited in some cases as a "dominant" and in other cases as a "recessive" and both parents contribute equally. However many pollen sterilities are inherited only from the pod parent and are cytoplasmic.

Michael's Sword (MS) has produced pollen fertile offspring when apparently used as the pod parent. So it is unlikely that the pollen sterility is cytoplasmic. That leaves "dominant" or "recessive" inheritance. If it is completely "dominant" then approximately one half of the F1 seedlings from a cross of MS (assuming it is heterozygous) with unrelated daylilies would be pollen sterile. If it is completely "recessive" then none of the F1 seedlings from a cross of MS with unrelated daylilies should be pollen sterile. One quarter of the F2 seedlings from those F1s would be expected to be pollen sterile.

There is one potential catch. The information available so far indicates that the petal characteristic is both variable in its expression and incompletely penetrant. That means there are daylilies that genetically have the characteristic but that may never show it. Which in turn means that there are daylilies that may be related to MS that do not show the petal characteristic but that may have the pollen sterility, possibly in a hidden state.

When characteristics are variable in their expression and incompletely penetrant it is useful to find outcrosses that increase both the expression and the percentage of offspring that show the characteristic and to minimize outcrosses to daylilies that do not increase those aspects.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 16, 2019 12:31 PM (+)]
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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Nov 16, 2019 11:57 AM CST

Moderator

In botany the term "beard" means a group of hairs or an awn and is botanically incorrect when describing characteristics found in daylilies. Use of the term "beard" in relation to daylilies has been rejected by the American Daylily Society since 2008.
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
NGA promotes and encourages the use of proper botanical and horticultural terminology. In the fall of 2010, the American Daylily Society approved and recognized Sculpted for registration as a form of daylilies with 3 distinctive form groups, pleated, relief and cristate.
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
To avoid further problems in the NGA Daylily Forum I'm asking everyone to please use the officially approved term, cristate, when referring to this form of sculpted daylilies. (Text beyond this post will be edited to the correct terminology.)


That said, while the Michael's Sword line is well known for it's infertile pollen issues the vast majority of known cristate forms, dip and tet, are both pod and pollen fertile.
Outcrossing should help with your pollen fertility issue. I would suggest adding other dip cristates to your crosses and not backcrossing into the MS line.
Name: Jeff
Newaygo, Michigan (Zone 5a)
If You Can't Fix It...
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goedric
Nov 16, 2019 7:57 PM CST
Char said:In botany the term "beard" means a group of hairs or an awn and is botanically incorrect when describing characteristics found in daylilies. Use of the term "beard" in relation to daylilies has been rejected by the American Daylily Society since 2008.
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
NGA promotes and encourages the use of proper botanical and horticultural terminology. In the fall of 2010, the American Daylily Society approved and recognized Sculpted for registration as a form of daylilies with 3 distinctive form groups, pleated, relief and cristate.
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
To avoid further problems in the NGA Daylily Forum I'm asking everyone to please use the officially approved term, cristate, when referring to this form of sculpted daylilies. (Text beyond this post will be edited to the correct terminology.)


That said, while the Michael's Sword line is well known for it's infertile pollen issues the vast majority of known cristate forms, dip and tet, are both pod and pollen fertile.
Outcrossing should help with your pollen fertility issue. I would suggest adding other dip cristates to your crosses and not backcrossing into the MS line.



Can you recommend a pollen fertile variety that is commercially available.. i am not having much luck in my searches
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 16, 2019 9:16 PM CST
"THREADFALL - diploid - Michael's Sword x Texas Feathered Fancy...height 25 in., bloom 4.5 in., season EM, Semi-evergreen, 24 buds, 4 branches, sculpted cristate, medium violet-red self, with patterned sepals plus a small green throat. This plant begins blooming in late June and continues into August on medium height scapes with arching blue-green foliage underneath. It is very pod fertile here and the pollen is extremely fertile. In 5 years I have never seen a bloom that did NOT have cristate tissue in the throat, whether grown outdoors or in the greenhouse though of course, your results may differ. It produces many cristate seedlings when crossed to cristate partners but its true value is in its ability to produce cristate seedlings in outcrosses. Most of the resulting seedlings have good pollen, too. Did I mention that it is an example of CRISTATE sculpting and not some other unofficial nomenclature??? $150 for single fans, though most are already double fans."

https://adena156c.wixsite.com/...

Note: 'Threadfall' is (Bee's Bettie Sue × Lavender Blue Baby) X (Lavender Blue Baby × unknown) What might you get if you self-pollinated 'Lavender Blue Baby' [if it is self-fertile/self-compatible].
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 16, 2019 9:34 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 16, 2019 9:17 PM CST
Have you checked the pollen fertility of 'Texas Feathered Fancy' and 'Greetings Earthling'?

These may or may not be available at this time.

Believe (Best, 2016)
height 31 in.(79 cm), bloom 5.5 in.(14 cm), season EM, Rebloom, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, 24 buds, 4 branches, Unusual Form Crispate, Pink self ..., fertile both ways. (Michael's Sword × sdlg)

Templar Sword (Best, 2015)
height 41 in.(104 cm), bloom 6.5 in.(17 cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, 17 buds, 4 branches, Purple with chalky eye and ..., both pod and pollen fertile. (Michael's Sword × sdlg)

Ten Thousand Angels (Best, 2015)
height 24 in.(61 cm), bloom 5 in.(13 cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, 16 buds, 3 branches, Pink self with ..., both pod and pollen fertile. (Michael's Sword × sdlg)

Unknown Soldier (Best, 2015)
height 25 in.(64 cm), bloom 5 in.(13 cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, 18 buds, 3 branches, Purple self with ..., both pod and pollen fertile. (Michael's Sword × sdlg)

W. Axl Rose (Best, 2016)
height 30 in.(76 cm), bloom 7 in.(18 cm), season M, Dormant, Diploid, Fragrant, 25 buds, 4 branches, Unusual Form Crispate, Fuchsia pink with chartreuse ..., fertile both ways. (Michael's Sword × Templar Sword)
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 16, 2019 9:51 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 16, 2019 9:55 PM CST
There is also 'Northwood Bearded Wonder' https://www.daylilies.org/Dayl... Bearded Wonder
and 'Wooster Mindcraft' https://www.daylilies.org/Dayl... Mindcraft
that you might want to check for pollen fertility.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 16, 2019 9:59 PM (+)]
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Name: Tim
West Chicago, IL (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower
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Lyshack
Nov 16, 2019 10:43 PM CST
If I were going to check for fertility, pod and pollen, I would take my list of cristate daylilies that I know I like, and run a search on the Lily Auction Closed "Title Key Word, Seed".

You can see at a glance which ones are pod and pollen fertile from the sold crosses. For example, if you search "Emporers Crocodile" there, you can see that there are pages of seeds sold for this one, some with it as pod parent and some as pollen parent.

I spent just a little time there and I learned that Blondi's Lipstick is evidently pod fertile, Northwoods Bearded Wonder is fertile both ways, Sculpted in Vermont looks to be primarily pollen fertile, Greetings Earthling is fertile both ways, and Wooster Mindcraft seems to be most a pod parent. Then I had to abort because I was finding myself starting to want some of those plants.

It's not fool proof. Sculpted in Vermont could be relatively pod fertile, but the sellers may just want to hold on to them for themselves, but you can learn a lot seeing what they are selling.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Nov 17, 2019 6:26 AM CST

Moderator

Sculpted in Vermont is one of my introductions and is easily pod and pollen fertile.

A few others not mentioned...
Crimson Enigma is easy pollen and a little difficult pod. It makes big pods with a lot of seed.
Lavender Feathers, pod and pollen.
Wyatt's Eyes. pod and pollen.

Edited to add - Wooster Mindcraft is pod and pollen fertile. I have used it both ways.

[Last edited by Char - Nov 17, 2019 6:35 AM (+)]
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Name: Jeff
Newaygo, Michigan (Zone 5a)
If You Can't Fix It...
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goedric
Nov 17, 2019 9:40 AM CST
Lyshack said:

It's not fool proof. Sculpted in Vermont could be relatively pod fertile, but the sellers may just want to hold on to them for themselves, but you can learn a lot seeing what they are selling.



Yes, I have noticed that many plants offered are pollen infertile... suggesting a universal issue when perhaps it's just a marketing thing where they are not really as likely to offer newer plants that are fertile both ways...
You Gotta Stand It.

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