Daylilies forum: "Grown without Bap"?

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Name: Maryl
Oklahoma (Zone 7a)
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Maryl
Nov 22, 2019 8:23 PM CST
What does that translate into for the buyer? I'm assuming that using it is an artificial means of stimulating the plant. Would that be right?............Maryl
Name: Terry
Ohio (Zone 6a)
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mystlw
Nov 22, 2019 8:58 PM CST
As I understand it, it is indeed a type of growth hormone. I have only read about its use in the context of proliferations, though, and am not certain how or why that would be a bad thing for a buyer. If I remember correctly, it has been described as "toxic", so perhaps a buyer would want to stay away from that level of toxicity?
My "I'd-pawn-a-grandchild-for-a-single-fan" list: Absolutely Fantastic, Ambar Sun, Clown Pants, Feathered Serpent, Of Olden Days, Purple Leopard, Rethink Pink.
Name: Maryl
Oklahoma (Zone 7a)
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Maryl
Nov 23, 2019 3:29 PM CST
I became aware of it only when someone said it as a plus on the LA that their daylilies were grown without BAP. I'm assuming, that like steroids in athletes, it's used to enhance performance that might otherwise not be there or at the least would be weaker. This might explain why some of my daylilies seem to arrive full of vigor, but over a couple years (if that) "grow backwards".
Thank you Terry for responding............Maryl
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Nov 23, 2019 4:54 PM CST

Moderator

Here's a link to the AHS Dictionary for BAP
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...

The reason growers put in their listings or online catalogs that their plants are grown without BAP is because BAP was used by growers to increase daylilies. If the paste was used on the crown it would produce many small fans which later could be sold. I believe due to buyers receiving smaller than expected and what were thought to be weaker growing fans the practice was mostly stopped and most growers do not use it anymore for that purpose.
Name: Terry
Ohio (Zone 6a)
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mystlw
Nov 23, 2019 9:39 PM CST
Char said:If the paste was used on the crown it would produce many small fans which later could be sold.


This may be a silly question, but, if left alone and not sold, would those smaller fans eventually grow as large as the other non-BAP fans? Does it actually produce smaller, weaker fans?
My "I'd-pawn-a-grandchild-for-a-single-fan" list: Absolutely Fantastic, Ambar Sun, Clown Pants, Feathered Serpent, Of Olden Days, Purple Leopard, Rethink Pink.
Name: James
California (Zone 8b)
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JamesT
Nov 24, 2019 6:12 AM CST
mystlw said:This may be a silly question, but, if left alone and not sold, would those smaller fans eventually grow as large as the other non-BAP fans? Does it actually produce smaller, weaker fans?


This is just conjecture, but I can think of two reasons buyers might not prefer BAP-induced plants. There may be a feeling that even after time, the fans will continue to divide more frequently, never attaining their typical size, and also that BAP treatment may contribute toward 'genetic drift'.

Whether or not those things actually happen or not, the real-world problem with any of the enhanced methods of daylily increase, such as BAP, tissue culture or crown-cutting is that they result in immature, undersized fans, which might be listed as SF divisions by profit-motivated resellers on online auction sites. Ÿēñ0|<_dåÿ|į|ïę$

Divisions which may take two full seasons to flower under good culture in a mild-winter climate.

Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Nov 24, 2019 7:25 AM CST
That brings up a question I have been wanting to ask. On the LA, often I see "Single Fan" listed and I wondered why so many were listed that way when they were not all very new, hard to find varieties? Would that be an indication that they are small fans and you might be getting more than one fan but that they were grown with BAP? I see so many daylily growers, who like me, just pass up anything listed as single fans on web sites and the LA that I found it odd there were so many single fan listings.
Name: Terry
Ohio (Zone 6a)
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mystlw
Nov 24, 2019 4:54 PM CST
Seedfork said:That brings up a question I have been wanting to ask. On the LA, often I see "Single Fan" listed and I wondered why so many were listed that way when they were not all very new, hard to find varieties? Would that be an indication that they are small fans and you might be getting more than one fan but that they were grown with BAP? I see so many daylily growers, who like me, just pass up anything listed as single fans on web sites and the LA that I found it odd there were so many single fan listings.


I don't know about the BAP usage, but I've always found it odd that so many buyers refuse to buy anything listed as a "single fan". I found out early on that "single fan" doesn't always mean 1 fan. Certainly, there are sellers who truly mean 1 single fan, but most times I receive multiples. There is a seller that I love, and from whom I've bought dozens of "single fans", and I can't recall ever receiving just one fan. There is another seller that will sometimes send 1, sometimes 2 - 3.

But if you refuse to buy ANY "single fan" listing, you will never know which sellers routinely send multiple fans.

My "I'd-pawn-a-grandchild-for-a-single-fan" list: Absolutely Fantastic, Ambar Sun, Clown Pants, Feathered Serpent, Of Olden Days, Purple Leopard, Rethink Pink.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Nov 24, 2019 5:16 PM CST
mystlw said:
I don't know about the BAP usage, but I've always found it odd that so many buyers refuse to buy anything listed as a "single fan".

I think my point is that so many buyers refuse to buy anything listed as a 'single fan', so why would you list a plant as a single fan when it is common knowledge than most buyers will just pass it by? If the seller is going to send two or three fans I really am at a loss for why they would ever list the plant as being a single fan?
Single fan for sale, list it that way. Double fan for sale list it that way. Three fans for sale list it that way. I see some buyers on the LA actually do that, I am just wondering why they all don't?
Name: Terry
Ohio (Zone 6a)
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mystlw
Nov 24, 2019 7:08 PM CST
Seedfork said:
Single fan for sale, list it that way. Double fan for sale list it that way. Three fans for sale list it that way. I see some buyers on the LA actually do that, I am just wondering why they all don't?


If a seller lines out, say, 20 single fans of a particular cultivar, the next season some may be double fans, a few triple, and some may remain single. I would think that it's simpler for the seller to use one listing page, since you will get AT LEAST one fan, but some buyers may get multiples. High volume sellers may not have the time or energy to differentiate.

My "I'd-pawn-a-grandchild-for-a-single-fan" list: Absolutely Fantastic, Ambar Sun, Clown Pants, Feathered Serpent, Of Olden Days, Purple Leopard, Rethink Pink.
Name: Kenny Shively
Rineyville, KY. region 10. (Zone 6b)
Daylilies Hybridizer Region: Kentucky
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kennysh
Nov 25, 2019 5:35 AM CST
I agree with Larry! I agree nodding
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Nov 25, 2019 7:33 AM CST
mystlw said:
If a seller lines out, say, 20 single fans of a particular cultivar, the next season some may be double fans, a few triple, and some may remain single. I would think that it's simpler for the seller to use one listing page, since you will get AT LEAST one fan, but some buyers may get multiples. High volume sellers may not have the time or energy to differentiate.

How does a seller determine he has enough plants to sell, how does he determine what condition the plants are in, how does he determine anything about his plants before selling on the auction if he does not take the time to look at them at least well enough to count to up to three or four at most and make a note of that for the auction? I agree it would be simpler for the seller to list the plants without paying much attention to them, I surely hope that is not the reason so many vendors list their plants as single fans...because they don't have the time or energy to differentiate? Maybe I am not understanding the process.
It's fine with me...the sellers can list single fans if they want...it just seems like a terrible business practice. Most people avoid buying single fans and that just seems to be common knowledge.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Nov 25, 2019 8:45 AM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 25, 2019 8:21 AM CST
Aren't most new introductions still being listed as single fans?
Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Nov 25, 2019 8:36 AM CST
Yes, I think that is expected with new intros and extremely popular plants, as mentioned earlier, it is those that do not fit that category that leave me scratching my head as to why so many are listed as single fans?
Name: Sue
Vermont (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Region: Vermont Garden Procrastinator Seed Starter Plant and/or Seed Trader
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SueVT
Nov 25, 2019 8:56 AM CST
I have only had a couple of LA plants fail in my garden, both were single fans. One in particular had obviously been grown in one of those tree pots - the roots were small, long, and pointed straight down. This plant died quickly despite care on my part.

I understand that new intros would be singles, that makes sense.
Suevt on the LA
Name: James
California (Zone 8b)
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JamesT
Nov 25, 2019 10:03 AM CST
Seedfork said:
How does a seller determine he has enough plants to sell, how does he determine what condition the plants are in, how does he determine anything about his plants before selling on the auction if he does not take the time to look at them at least well enough to count to up to three or four at most and make a note of that for the auction? I agree it would be simpler for the seller to list the plants without paying much attention to them, I surely hope that is not the reason so many vendors list their plants as single fans...because they don't have the time or energy to differentiate? Maybe I am not understanding the process.
It's fine with me...the sellers can list single fans if they want...it just seems like a terrible business practice. Most people avoid buying single fans and that just seems to be common knowledge.


I don't think it's a matter of not knowing or caring. If a bed of single fans are lined out in the fall, many of them may be immediately auctioned off for spring delivery. Some of them may emerge with a small second or third fan in the spring, but a fan with small tag-along sprouts really can't/shouldn't be listed as a double fan, so the seller auctions what they have at the time of listing.

Even if the seller is auctioning for immediate shipment, and a decent single fan plant has a small second fan, listing it as a single fan not only avoids complaints, but also generates goodwill, in that the buyer is pleased to receive a little extra. Space in the auction title is limited, and 1F/2F is standard terminology.

Apparently, enough people buy single fans for the practice to be continued. Generally, we're talking about plants which are in limited supply, and the object of an obsession. Plus, it's an auction format, and a low starting price will always generate interest. When faced with the choice of single fan or no fan, the collector will generally go for the single fan, if the price is attractive.

The problem with sizing daylilies by "fans" is that the term is vague. There was a time when it meant a mature fan, i.e. one with a scape scar on the crown, then it morphed into the undefinable "blooming-size" fan, but that was still too confining for some sellers, now we're at SF, which can be anything.

I've bought quite a few singles on the Lily Auction, and I know who the stingy sellers are. For the most part, a single fan from a hybridizer's garden is going to be pretty robust.
[Last edited by JamesT - Nov 25, 2019 10:05 AM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Nov 25, 2019 10:47 AM CST
JamesT,
I really appreciate that insite. I can now better understand why at this time of year there would be so many single fans listed. The seller has lined the plants out, and is offering the plants for sale in the spring...now that makes sense to even me!
I also agree with the other statements in your post, very good explanations.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Nov 25, 2019 11:04 AM CST
Sorry about hijacking the theme of this thread...didn't intend to. I have read that BAP has been suggested to cause bud drop on plants, but read others say that was caused by poor application methods and bad timing. Mostly it seems the most common ill effect of BAP is the production of small fans as far as I can find.

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