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Jan 29, 2020 11:16 PM CST
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
I am curious why there has not been more offspring registered with The Fantastic Barbara Watts daylily as the parent. There are over 5 pages of seeds on the LA that were sold in the last 5 years for The Fantastic Barbara Watts. If you multiply an average of 5 seeds/sale X 50 sale transactions/page X 5 pages = 1250 seeds Let's say there is a 50% of loss and/or not planted, you still have 625 potential seedlings. This number does not include seeds that people may make from their own The Fantastic Barbara Watts daylily and grow out themselves. Yet in these last 5 years, there has been only one registered child daylily. Does anyone have seedlings with The Fantastic Barbara Watts as the parent? Would love to see pics! Can it be that a beautiful daylily such as this make lousy offsrping? It's hard to believe that not even a few worthy enough for registration. Yet, seeds with it as the parent are still selling in recent months. Not sure what to make of this? Why aren't there more registered offspring for The Fantastic Barbara Watts?
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Jan 30, 2020 7:51 AM CST
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
No photo of the child plant in our database here yet for some reason. I like the looks of 'Suburban Hawaiian Memory' (Watts, 2017) on the AHS site.
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Jan 30, 2020 8:02 AM CST
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
I was hoping someone smarter than me would chime in because this is a very complex question!! There are many possible explanations with the obvious one being that stellar offspring may be in gardens awaiting enough increase to introduce as the plant is still rather "young" as a parent.

Another observation: The parents of THE FANTASTIC BARBARA WATTS are unknown x unknown. Before using a plant, it is extremely useful to know who both the parents and the grandparents are....looking for signs of poor color, bad plant habit, or TET conversions in order to make an educated choice in using any cultivar to achieve hybridizing goals. Crossing one pretty face x another pretty face does not translate into pretty kids with good plant habits.

Another observation: THE FANTASTIC BARBARA WATTS is an evergreen and if you search for who is selling it as a plant on the LA, you will find it is mostly sellers who live south of Atlanta or who own greenhouses. So perhaps some of the seed buyers had seedlings that perished in the winter if they live in a colder climate.

In evaluating a bloom for registration, one should also consider distinction. During the time THE FANTASTIC BARBARA WATTS was registered, MANY other hybridizers were also producing the same type of pattern with the same coloration. Many of the patterns were not very stable. So as a parent, it may have produced a lot of similar seedlings with unstable patterning....just guessing on that one as I have not used this plant as a parent. But you can see variations in the photos submitted to the NGA database. Yes, a beautiful flower can certainly produce just awful kids! It is a good reason to keep records....to find out which plants should NOT be used in your hybridizing program so that you don't become unproductive by making the same bad crosses year after year.
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Jan 30, 2020 8:11 AM CST
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
Davi said:
Another observation: The parents of THE FANTASTIC BARBARA WATTS are unknown x unknown. Before using a plant, it is extremely useful to know who both the parents and the grandparents are....looking for signs of poor color, bad plant habit, or TET conversions in order to make an educated choice in using any cultivar to achieve hybridizing goals. Crossing one pretty face x another pretty face does not translate into pretty kids with good plant habits.

@Davi,
Can you go into more detail of the reasons TET conversions in the parentage would be a negative?
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Jan 30, 2020 8:27 AM CST
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
I'll give you an example, Larry. A few years ago, I was admiring the cultivar PURPLE GOLIATH. I LOVED the saturation of that purple and even though it was a bit too "round" for my hybridizing program, our favorite seed seller here at NGA was offering seeds of PURPLE GOLIATH crossed with some of my things....so what could be better than THAT!!!...an outcross for ole Davi without buying an expensive plant. I was so excited to buy the seeds! Last summer, those seeds bloomed. And I didn't have to pull the tags to tell which ones had PURPLE GOLIATH as the parent....they ALL looked EXACTLY like PURPLE GOLIATH.....which came out of a tet conversion. Maurice can explain the influence better than I can on future generations from a TET conversion. But I ended up with a LOT of look alikes for the flower rather than something distinctive or new. It's too early to tell what the plants will be like when they mature but it doesn't matter because the purpose of hybridizing should not be to reinvent the wheel. (sigh)...should have known better!
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Jan 30, 2020 9:14 AM CST
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
@admmad
Davi said: Maurice can explain the influence better than I can on future generations from a TET conversion.

Maurice, can you give up more info on the influence of TET conversions.
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Jan 30, 2020 9:37 AM CST
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
I'll try to explain.
@Davi Are any of these the other parent(s) in the cross(es)?
MERMAID'S SPELL,
A LOT LIKE LOVE
CURT'S GIFT
MAMA DRAMA
CHICAGO GIRLS
CONFESSIONS OF A HEMAHOLIC
CAROLINA COOL DOWN
TICKLE FINGERS
CELEBRATING WOMEN
Maurice
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Jan 30, 2020 10:25 AM CST
Name: Trina
Idaho (Zone 7a)
Annuals Salvias Hybridizer Hummingbirder Herbs Echinacea
Dragonflies Daylilies Clematis Cat Lover Garden Photography Butterflies
Just looked at Tim Bell's 2020 intros and "Frozen Patterns" is out of (Inviting Romance X The Fantastic Barbara Watts). Quite a beautiful daylily, check it out. Just being introduced this year, so Karen may be right in thinking that for some it's just a bit too soon for some of them to be showing up.
Avatar for Davi
Jan 30, 2020 10:39 AM CST
Name: Davi (Judy) Davisson
Sherrills Ford, NC (Zone 7a)
Maurice

PURPLE GOLIATH was the pollen parent using

CAROLINA COOL DOWN
CONFESSIONS OF A HEMAHOLIC
CURT'S GIFT

Judy
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Jan 30, 2020 10:51 AM CST
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
Excellent post, Kousa.

My very rooky opinion.... On my short crosses, so far, I haven't gotten much that impressed me.

From a long cross, I got a few heart stoppers. I often wondered if I only did 5 to 10 seeds would I been lucky enough to get these few special seedlings. I once asked whether you can make a judgment from just a few seeds. Gossard replied that he got Heavenly United We Stand from a few seeds. In my opinion that was good luck, which he deserved.
Last edited by bobjax Jan 30, 2020 11:11 AM Icon for preview
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Jan 30, 2020 11:04 AM CST
Name: Sue Petruske
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
admmad said:I'll try to explain.
@Davi Are any of these the other parent(s) in the cross(es)?
MERMAID'S SPELL,
A LOT LIKE LOVE
CURT'S GIFT
MAMA DRAMA
CHICAGO GIRLS
CONFESSIONS OF A HEMAHOLIC
CAROLINA COOL DOWN
TICKLE FINGERS
CELEBRATING WOMEN


Judy's reply to Maurice:
---Maurice
PURPLE GOLIATH was the pollen parent using
*CAROLINA COOL DOWN
*CONFESSIONS OF A HEMAHOLIC
*CURT'S GIFT
---Judy

I'm on pins and needles. Can't wait to hear what Maurice has to say. Thinking Thinking
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Jan 30, 2020 11:06 AM CST
Name: Tim
West Chicago, IL (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Native Plants and Wildflowers Vegetable Grower
Speaking of the devil, from seeds from said NGA seller:

x


Mama Drama (Davisson '13) x Purple Goliath (Grace-Gossard '17)
Thumb of 2020-01-30/Lyshack/7ce85f

Maybe not the best example, because you can definitely see Mama Drama's influence in the shape and edging.
My other seedlings from this cross had similar color, but different shapes.

edited to add parental picures
Last edited by Lyshack Jan 30, 2020 11:20 AM Icon for preview
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Jan 30, 2020 11:27 AM CST
Name: Robin
Southern Michigan (Zone 6a)
Cat Lover Daylilies Region: Michigan Seed Starter Seller of Garden Stuff Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Beautiful Tim! It's a good thing there's more Mama Drama influence in your seedling. I like it much better than Purple Goliath.
God blessed me with dirt.
('Mipii' on The LA)
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Jan 30, 2020 11:28 AM CST
Name: Ashton & Terry
Jones, OK (Zone 7a)
Windswept Farm & Gardens
Butterflies Keeps Sheep Pollen collector Region: Oklahoma Lilies Irises
Hybridizer Hummingbirder Hostas Daylilies Region: United States of America Celebrating Gardening: 2015
The hybridizer of The Fantastic Barbara Watts does not register any with parentage. It is possible that there are babies registered as Unknown x Unknown. Like this one.....

Ghost Gifts
Jeff Salter 2019. You have to read the details on Salters web page.
"one of the best "Fantastic Barbara Watts" kids.

AHS will get updated one day and you can search for the parent and find the 2019 and 2020 intros.
Kidfishing
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Jan 30, 2020 11:44 AM CST
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Judy, you the best! Thank you for a very thorough answer! I have forgotten how long it takes to grow a seedling to introduction. With 6 years being the average, this would be about the time and perhaps a bit early that we should see more introductions with the The Fantastic Barbara Watts as a parent. And Trina just backed it up with Bell's intro of Frozen Patterns. When I started buying seeds in 2016, its crosses were very expensive and sometimes went over a $100 for 5 seeds. Before I was used to the high prices, I was quite shocked at how much some of the bids went up for them. They cost even more than tet RFK at the time. I have been following The Fantastic Barbara Watts daylily with interest in its offspring since then to see whether the seeds have proven their worth in cost for its seeds buyers. Thus the above questions. Thanks again, Judy for an insightful and thoughtful response!
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Jan 30, 2020 11:54 AM CST
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
@bobjax You are right! It's either hard work or luck! I have yet seen Heavenly United We Stand and can't wait to see it in my garden this summer. Hard work is commendable but it sure is nice to have luck in your favor sometime. Smiling Smiling

Tim, beautiful seedling! It looks like it gets the best from both parents.

Terry, thanks for that bit of info! I missed that. That's a really good catch.
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Jan 30, 2020 11:55 AM CST
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
kousa said:Judy, you the best! Thank you for a very thorough answer! I have forgotten how long it takes to grow a seedling to introduction. With 6 years being the average, this would be about the time and perhaps a bit early that we should see more introductions with the The Fantastic Barbara Watts as a parent. And Trina just backed it up with Bell's intro of Frozen Patterns. When I started buying seeds in 2016, its crosses were very expensive and sometimes went over a $100 for 5 seeds. Before I was used to the high prices, I was quite shocked at how much some of the bids went up for them. They cost even more than tet RFK at the time. I have been following The Fantastic Barbara Watts daylily with interest in its offspring since then to see whether the seeds have proven their worth in cost for its seeds buyers. Thus the above questions. Thanks again, Judy for an insightful and thoughtful response!


Now you can buy the plant "The Fantastic Barbara Watts" for $20 or less on Lily Auction. Reminds me of when Gossard paid Grace $5,000 for tet RFK. Now it is around $70.
Last edited by bobjax Jan 30, 2020 11:59 AM Icon for preview
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Jan 30, 2020 11:58 AM CST
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
I did find quite a few Salter plants registered as (unknown x Unknown), many that did not even refer to parentage at all, but still quite a few that actually list the parentage.
Example: Bay of Storms (Salter, 2014)
height 32 in.(81 cm), bloom 5.75 in.(15 cm), season M, Rebloom, Semi-Evergreen, Tetraploid, Pale rose lavender with a large blue violet eye and cream edge that contains some teeth. ((The Colorado Kid × God Save the Queen) × Storm at Sea)
I don't know what that indicates? Poor records or doesn't think it is important or lots of digger critters in the garden?
I think I showed 10 Salter plants in my list of plants and only three of them showed the parentage.
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Jan 30, 2020 11:58 AM CST
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Thanks Bob! I know! Imagine some of its seeds were sold over $150 4 years ago.
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Jan 30, 2020 12:00 PM CST
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Seedfork said:I did find quite a few Salter plants registered as (unknown x Unknown), many that did not even refer to parentage at all, but still quite a few that actually list the parentage.
Example: Bay of Storms (Salter, 2014)
height 32 in.(81 cm), bloom 5.75 in.(15 cm), season M, Rebloom, Semi-Evergreen, Tetraploid, Pale rose lavender with a large blue violet eye and cream edge that contains some teeth. ((The Colorado Kid × God Save the Queen) × Storm at Sea)
I don't know what that indicates? Poor records or doesn't think it is important or lots of digger critters in the garden?
I think I showed 10 Salter plants in my list of plants and only three of them showed the parentage.


I agree with you Larry! It seems that his/her most special intros came from unknowns.

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