Daylilies forum→Complete Selfs

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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Feb 3, 2020 7:32 AM CST

Moderator

It's interesting when you put "complete self " into the NGA color search box and bring up the one daylily registered as a complete self it appears to have black anthers.
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Solar Scream')
https://www.daylilies.org/Dayl...
Even with registration instructions the use of the term "self" (and many others) isn't being used correctly. Two examples....
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Abilene Blue Heart')
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'About the People')
Which reminds me....when registering you shouldn't need to spend 15 mins trying to find the guidelines, they do change occasionally as new terms/options/requirements are added. The only place I found a link is at the bottom of the ADS homepage under "Register a Daylily". Even then they are not referred to as the guidelines only a click box labeled "Getting Started". There you find "How To Register a Daylily" (the guidelines), "Naming Rules" and a link to the "Daylily Dictionary". I'm sure there are a lot of folks that don't even know there are guidelines or naming rules. When you click under "Resources" "Registrations" At the top of the ADS Homepage the guidelines, naming rules and dictionary should be the VERY first thing you see instead of being taken right into the registration process.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
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sooby
Feb 3, 2020 7:57 AM CST
Char, you are right the registration instructions clearly say "Self - The petals and sepals are all the SAME shade of one color. The color of the stamens or
of the throat may be different. If your daylily has an eye or an edge, it is NOT a self."

Having said that, 'About the People' is not registered as a self. That appears to be a NGA error?
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Feb 3, 2020 8:58 AM CST

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It does appear to be a NGA error. Not sure how that would have been entered in there with the download from ADS. Must have been entered incorrectly by someone. Shrug! I can correct it though Smiling
Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Feb 3, 2020 10:46 AM CST
Char said:It's interesting when you put "complete self " into the NGA color search box and bring up the one daylily registered as a complete self it appears to have black anthers.
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Solar Scream')
https://www.daylilies.org/Dayl...


I gave up using the search feature here, it doesn't work at all for me. Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment here, but are you saying that only ONE daylily is registered w AHS as a complete self? When I went to AHS website, to advanced search there isnt' even an option to search for selfs, or complete selfs that I can find. So if a person only wanted those, how would one go about sorting to find them? I have selfs and complete selfs in my garden and I love them, Ones w lots of patterns and edges usually don't stay here long. I find the older ones are more solid in color, the newer ones being registered tend to be more focused on patterns and such.
Name: Greg
central North Carolina (Zone 7b)
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gregnc
Feb 3, 2020 10:48 AM CST
This is an interesting and thought provoking thread.

While the ADS definition a of complete self mentions the color of the pistil and stamens being the same as the segments, I wonder if that's meant to include the entire pistil and stamens. As many of you have observed, often the filaments are the same color as the segments but the anthers are not. And for that matter, the tip of the pistil (stigma) is often white. In the posted photo on the ADS site, the gold flower is listed as a complete self, but when the photo is enlarged, it does look like it has dark anthers. I've sometimes seen white looking anthers which usually means either no pollen or infertile pollen, but I can't remember seeing anthers the same color as the segments. Have any of you ever seen this?

Back in the day, we used to make a distinction between the throat and what we called the heart. For example, a flower could have a yellow throat but a green heart. The yellow throat wasn't distinct enough or anatomically in the right place to be confused with an eyezone, watermark, or halo. The ADS dictionary does not recognize heart, but if you look at the photos included in the entry for throat, one of them shows a gradation of colors...pale yellow, deep yellow, and green. Many daylilies seem to have this gradation of color(s) in the throat, so I think it's pretty uncommon indeed to see the entire throat the same color as the rest of the segments. And I think the time of day you're viewing makes a difference...green throats in the morning often disappear by afternoon.

And what about midribs? 'Buttered Popcorn' is registered as a self, but looking at the corresponding photo in the ADS database, the inner segments (petals) have white midribs while the outer segments (sepals) do not. (I actually don't think this photo looks like what I've grown as BP but colors can vary on plants grown in sun versus shade). Where do midribs fall in this discussion?
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Feb 3, 2020 11:20 AM CST

Moderator

Frillylily said:

I gave up using the search feature here, it doesn't work at all for me. Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment here, but are you saying that only ONE daylily is registered w AHS as a complete self? When I went to AHS website, to advanced search there isnt' even an option to search for selfs, or complete selfs that I can find. So if a person only wanted those, how would one go about sorting to find them? I have selfs and complete selfs in my garden and I love them, Ones w lots of patterns and edges usually don't stay here long. I find the older ones are more solid in color, the newer ones being registered tend to be more focused on patterns and such.


I find the search feature on NGA much easier to use with all the options available. When searching for color or characteristics that a hybridizer would write in the description of the bloom, you can type what you are looking for, in this case "complete self", in the "color description" box on NGA or the "description keywords" box on ADS both while using advance search options. NGA actually has a check box for searching"self".

DaylilyDazzled said:I am guessing these are complete selves I have
Jerusalum
Thumb of 2020-02-01/DaylilyDazzled/f4f4c3

https://daylilies.org/DaylilyD...
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Jerusalem')
I agree Greg. The above posted image of Jerusalem in this thread, the ADS database, NGA database and Daylily Dictionary image showing Jerusalem as "complete self" all look to have black anthers. Shrug!
Name: Ken
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7b)
Daylilies & hardy hibiscus
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MrKGDickie
Feb 3, 2020 4:24 PM CST
sooby said:

I was referring to Greg's comment that was embedded in your post, i.e. that selfs are rare, and just pointing out that over a quarter of all registrations appear to be selfs. I actually didn't expect there to be that many, I don't know why because of course the original daylily species were yellow or orangey selfs, with the obvious exception of the fulvous species. Some of the registered selfs must be complete selfs but how many out of the 26k I have no idea.

I suspect that the term "complete self" is in the Daylily Dictionary because it came from the glossary of the 1968 Daylily Handbook. Examples of complete selfs given in the Handbook are 'Cartwheels' and 'Bride'. In the Handbook 'Frances Fay' and 'Queen of Hearts' are examples of just selfs.

Registration instructions only refer to "self", don't require registrants to distinguish, and obviously they haven't been doing so since the term has been around for decades yet there is only one registration using it, and that was as recently as 2018.


Thanks for all the awesome information. I'm pretty sure I have an electronic version of that 1968 handbook somewhere. I'm gonna dig it up and give it a read!

I'm also going to leave ok for pics of Cartwheel and Bride. Smiling
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Name: Robin
Southern Michigan (Zone 6a)
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RobinSeeds
Feb 3, 2020 5:18 PM CST
From the AHS/ADS, I didn't understand the definition for same color regarding a complete self had included the anthers. Are not all "normal" anthers a dark color underneath the pollen?

"A flower having perianth segments, throat, pistil and stamens all the same color."
https://www.daylilies.org/ahs_...
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Feb 3, 2020 5:47 PM CST
It was not the wording in particular that stated anthers, but from the link you included, if you click on "Stamen" then the diagram it brings up does show the anthers are included as part of the stamen of course. So you just wonder if it were actually meant to include them.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Feb 4, 2020 7:22 AM (+)]
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Name: Ken
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7b)
Daylilies & hardy hibiscus
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MrKGDickie
Feb 3, 2020 7:29 PM CST
Warning: gardening book geek hijinks follow.

The Illustrated Guide to Daylilies, edited for AHS by Oliver Billingslea in 2017, defines selfs and complete selfs like this:

"When the flower segments (petals and sepals) are all the same single color, the flower is designated as a self. The stamens and throat may be different. When all the flower parts, including stamen, throat, and perianth, are of the same color, the flower is termed a complete self."

Prior to that, Billingslea makes this statement:

"♣ Stamen color. Like the throat, the stamens may be a different color from the segments, or they may be matching. Usually they are light yellow to greenish shades. The anthers, which are borne at the tips of the stamens, are often darker in color—sometimes purple or black."

The way this is worded, he seems to be treating the stamens and the anthers as separate and distinct. Kind of like the hair on a person's head. The hair is part of the head but not the same as. It's confusing!

That said, I know exactly what everyone means by what diagrams of the stamen, which include the filament and the anther, seem to say (that the latter two are both parts of the former).

The book's example photo of a complete self is a double. The petaloid stamens, which make it a peony-style double, do end in modified anthers. These anthers are definitely not the same color as the rest of the flower.

Thumb of 2020-02-04/MrKGDickie/92a37b

I'm honestly not sure what to think, since the one daylily that comes up as a complete self in their database has dark anthers. Then this example is the same.

Does anyone know someone at AHS/ADS we could ask? For that matter, is it AHS, or ADS, or both? I never know what to call it now. 😉

I've really opened a can of worms, haven't I? Eeeeek.
Hardy hibiscus are a hobby, but daylilies are an obsession.
[Last edited by MrKGDickie - Feb 3, 2020 7:33 PM (+)]
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Name: Ken
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7b)
Daylilies & hardy hibiscus
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MrKGDickie
Feb 3, 2020 7:32 PM CST
Seedfork said:It was not the wording in particular that stated antheres, but from the link you included, if you click on "Stamen" then the diagram it brings up does show the antheres are included as part of the stamen of course. So you just wonder if it were actually meant to include them.


Your last sentence identifies exactly the source of my current confusion!
Hardy hibiscus are a hobby, but daylilies are an obsession.
Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Feb 4, 2020 1:41 PM CST
Searching Daylilies
Choose your various options below, then click Search to view plants that match all the selected options. Note that your search results will only include plants that match EVERY option you select.
Results: Search query:
Bloom time: Midseason
Plant Traits: Diurnal
Bloom Traits: Diamond Dusted
Flower Color: Pink

No results found. Your query may have been too specific. Try removing some of the options and try again.

Well here's how my searches go. Searched for midseason, day opening, diamond dusted pink daylilies. Got no results. Makes no sense to me. Obviously there are many many daylilies that should be fitting that bill. Anytime I use the search here on NGA, the more options I choose, I get no results at all. If I only choose one or two options, I still get results that I know are wrong.
[Last edited by Frillylily - Feb 4, 2020 1:41 PM (+)]
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Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Feb 4, 2020 1:46 PM CST
So I tried another search here at NGA using evergreen, red, and 1999. I got no results. I went to AHS website and advance searched those same 3 things and got 72 results(8 pgs). Some of them look to not fit the description in that only the eye pattern is red, but most of them are red. All of them are 1999. The search feature here just does not work. Shrug!
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Feb 4, 2020 2:00 PM CST
Frillylily
The color is normally the problem for me doing a search. So I figure if I leave off the color and just run the search I can scroll down the photos quickly and find anything that has the color I am looking for. So I ran the search and left off "PINK" , got 215 results.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Feb 4, 2020 2:48 PM CST

Moderator

Frillylily said:So I tried another search here at NGA using evergreen, red, and 1999. I got no results. I went to AHS website and advance searched those same 3 things and got 72 results(8 pgs). Some of them look to not fit the description in that only the eye pattern is red, but most of them are red. All of them are 1999. The search feature here just does not work. Shrug!


I got 72 results in the NGA database.

Frillylily said:Searching Daylilies
Choose your various options below, then click Search to view plants that match all the selected options. Note that your search results will only include plants that match EVERY option you select.
Results: Search query:
Bloom time: Midseason
Plant Traits: Diurnal
Bloom Traits: Diamond Dusted
Flower Color: Pink

No results found. Your query may have been too specific. Try removing some of the options and try again.

Well here's how my searches go. Searched for midseason, day opening, diamond dusted pink daylilies. Got no results. Makes no sense to me. Obviously there are many many daylilies that should be fitting that bill. Anytime I use the search here on NGA, the more options I choose, I get no results at all. If I only choose one or two options, I still get results that I know are wrong.


I got 70 results in the NGA database.

Searches rely on the hybridizer info and what box you check, so while a daylily may be pink and diamond dusted unless that info is in the database, from the hybridizer registration info or added by a member, your checked box can't pull them up.

Are you using the color check boxes way down on the search page? Don't use those. Type the color in the "Color Description" box right below Bloom Form instead.
If you do the search like this...
Bloom Time - Midseason (Check box)
Plant Traits- Diurnal (Check box)
Bloom Traits - Diamond Dusted (Check box)
Color Description - Pink (type in)

Yes, Anniversary Keepsake is yellow, but if you look at the registration info in Color Description you will see " diamond dusted greenish lemon yellow touched pink" ( Diamond Dusted & Pink).
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Feb 4, 2020 3:23 PM CST
I haven't had much luck with the NGA database searches either. I haven't used it much other than to search by hybridizer lately.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Feb 5, 2020 11:25 AM CST
yes I use the color boxes down the page, I guess I thought that's what they were for Hilarious!
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Mar 7, 2020 1:41 PM CST
Based on the discussion here, I asked questions on Facebook and on the email Robin. Below is an email from Sue Bergeron with the answer about complete self:

On Feb 2, 2020, at 9:09 AM, Vickie wrote:

Hello Robins and Welcome February!

I asked some questions on Facebook and then remembered that there is a
whole group of folks on this Robin who might be able to answer a question
about the ADS dictionary terms "Complete-Self" and "Self". My questions:
1) Does the description in both of the terms "Complete-Self" and "Self"
mean that both parts of the stamen (filament and anther) must be the same
color as the rest of the bloom?
2) If the anthers are not considered part of a complete-self, should this
be clarified in the dictionary?
3) If both parts of the stamen (filament and anthers) are included in
these descriptions, can someone give examples of a Self and Complete-Self?

You raised very good questions! The Scientific Studies Committee have discussed this and revised the definition for "Self" in the Daylily Dictionary to make it clearer and more botanically specific, i.e. filament instead of stamen, and style instead of pistil (because the term pistil also includes the ovary and stigma).

For additional clarity, we added a sentence about selfs not having markings of a different colour, as emphasized in the registration instructions.

Here's the revised definition of Self in the Daylily Dictionary:

"The petals and sepals are all the same shade of one color. The color of the throat, style or stamen filaments may be different. If the petals and sepals have an edge, eye, midribs or other markings of a different color the daylily is not a self. In a complete self the throat, style and filaments are the same color as the petals and sepals."

https://daylilies.org/daylily-...

We have also removed the separate definition for "Complete-Self" because it was already covered in the "Self" definition (the hyphen should not have been there BTW).

I hope this addresses all the concerns.

Sue Bergeron
Chair, Scientific Studies Committee
AHS Region 4 USDA Zone 4
Eastern Ontario, Canada
science@daylilies.org


Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Mar 7, 2020 4:27 PM CST
Very interesting. It is great to see this clarified!
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