Roses forum→Help identifying a red [hybrid tea?] rose?

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bburr25
Feb 1, 2020 12:44 PM CST
Hello,

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I've tried to do all I can to get as close as possible to identifying which cultivar this rose was, and I need further help. I grew up with it for many years, and it has easily been the most favorite individual plant of my life.
This is all I know about it so far:
-It was purchased from a local hardware store [in a small town in the U.S. Intermountain West] and planted before (or during) 1989, so the variety must be older than that year.
-It had a delicious, deep, fairly strong scent.
-It was armed with thorns.
-It had blooms throughout the season (though I don't know whether I should describe that as "continual blooming" or "blooming in waves or cycles")
-The blossoms were usually quite large, at least 4-5"
-I assume by its appearance and habit that it must have been a hybrid tea rose. I have done searches for as many possible red cultivars as I could, and found more than I bargained for. I listed all the remote possibilities that I could below to try and narrow it down:

-Alec's Red (This was suggested to me elsewhere and is among the strongest possibilities, but I still need to rule out others)
-Precious Platinum/Red Star
-Olympiad
-Chrysler Imperial
-Loving Memory
-Royal William/Fragrant Charm
(All of the cultivars below this point are hybrid tea cultivars that I've ruled out for the listed reasons, but will consider anyway in case my ruling was not correct:)
-Fragrant Cloud—Fairly close, but its color may not be right, from what I've seen of photos. It is, however, a parent of 'Alec's Red'...
-Dolly Parton—Being a child of 'Fragrant Cloud', it seems to also be off in its color.
-Forgotten Dreams—Another child of Fragrant Cloud', it actually looks quite close except for minor details about the blooms' appearance.
-Velvet Fragrance—bush height might be a little too low, otherwise a possibility...
-Avon—It was recently suggested to me that my rose was this. However, I did read that Avon is (nearly) thornless, and my rose certainly was not.
-Fragrant Charm—this might have too few petals per bloom.
-Ingrid Bergman—too few petals, and its bush height is too short compared to my rose.
-Kardinal—from what I've seen of the blooms, the general appearance doesn't look the same to me...
-Crimson Glory—The bloom color may be a little too dark.
-Mister Lincoln—I find its scent too different than that of my rose, and it may be too dark.
-Oklahoma—Also darkens too much, and the blossom doesn't seem to have the right shape (interesting that it has the same parents as 'Mister Lincoln'...)
-Deep Secret—Too dark, from what I've seen.

If anyone has any other thoughts, ideas, comments, etc., please share—I appreciate any help that anyone can offer!

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[Last edited by bburr25 - Feb 1, 2020 12:50 PM (+)]
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Name: seil
St Clair Shores, MI (Zone 6a)
Roses Garden Photography Region: Michigan
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seilMI
Feb 1, 2020 7:12 PM CST
bburr, you've already discovered the challenge. The only color harder to ID than a red rose is a PINK rose, lol! There are just so many of them out there! I have a red HT that was my Aunt's rose still in my garden that I've been trying to ID for a least ten years now with no luck. Pick one of those beautiful roses you've listed and go with it and save yourself a lot of grief.
Name: Christopher
New Brunswick, NJ, USA (Zone 7a)
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AquaEyes
Feb 2, 2020 8:02 AM CST
Why don't you just start collecting fragrant red Hybrid Teas, and begin your collection with the roses you think are the closest match? Check out HelpMeFind and use the "Buy From" tab to see which nurseries carry them, and shop away!

:-)

~Christopher
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Keeps Horses I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Plant Identifier Raises cows Roses Farmer Celebrating Gardening: 2015
porkpal
Feb 2, 2020 12:20 PM CST
I like Christopher's idea!
Porkpal
Name: Rosemary
Sacramento, CA (Zone 9b)
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reh0622
Feb 2, 2020 4:53 PM CST
Armed with thorns sounds like Oklahoma, but your bush and bloom pics reminds me of Chrysler Imperial. I have a limited experience with most of the names on your list.
Name: Glenn
Calgary, AB, Canada (Zone 3b)
Chinook_City
Mar 24, 2020 12:29 AM CST
I don't know if this thread has expired, but if not, I have a suggestion. Based on the large spray of buds in the photo, this may be a rose that is described in Peter Schneider's book, "Right Rose Right Place". He does not have a picture, but a few sites have a limited number of photos. Based on his comments, this rose is one I would like to get, but it is in limited circulation. Peter says, "This rose has it all -- huge ruffly crimson blooms with an intoxicating scent, a healthy and bushy habit, and winter hardiness." It is the Tantau rose named Fountain, Fountaine or Red Prince. He says, "It suffered from an identity crisis, sold as a hybrid tea in some parts of Europe and a shrub in others. It is actually most useful when used as a large (to 5') floribunda." Coming out it 1969, it was ahead of its time. Peter lists the hardiness as zones 5-9. It seems to be for sale in England. I'll buy it if it ever is available in western Canada.
SW Ohio River Valley (Zone 6b)
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vaporvac
Mar 24, 2020 1:10 AM CST
Check if Peter has it. He has most of the Roses unless they've died. It's best to drop him an email as he has more than what is in the following update.
http://www.combinedroselist.co...
[Last edited by vaporvac - Mar 24, 2020 1:11 AM (+)]
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Name: Glenn
Calgary, AB, Canada (Zone 3b)
Chinook_City
Mar 24, 2020 6:33 PM CST
I did not know that Peter sold rose bushes vaporvac, so thanks for that information. Seeing messages for nurseries, like Heirloom and J&P, that say that they do not ship to Canada, I had not thought about importing roses from the US. I was quite surprised to learn on this site, that many southern members like to import roses from Ontario, since they like the root stock used by Palatine. I will have to check it out further. Thank You!
United Kingdom
Growmore
Mar 28, 2020 6:10 PM CST
It is so frustrating at times attempting to identfy roses. Here in the UK, I try to get folk to provide as much detail as possible. Number of petals, vigor, susceptibility to disease etc.

I do prefer to have a sample but never mind.

You do mention that you purchased it in 1989 via a local hardware store/shop. I know that rose growing is a big thing among US gardeners. Have you tried checking what red roses were popular around 1989. Here in the UK, new roses usually are purchased diret from rose nurseries, then about three tears later the plants find their way to local stores and general garden centers etc. Have you a local gardening club etc near you?

I wish you all the best in your seach. Please. If I can be of further help, please say.

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