Daylilies forum: Fast increase on a seedling

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Name: Celeste
central New Hampshire (Zone 4b)
Region: New Hampshire Daylilies Hybridizer Birds Cat Lover Butterflies
Seller of Garden Stuff Roses
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celestialrose
Apr 17, 2020 2:45 PM CST
Even though I made and sold a lot of seeds this past winter, this is only my second year growing my own seedlings. So forgive my newbie observations and what may be an odd question. *Blush*
I live in zone 4 New Hampshire where winter goes on for an eternity and it gets COLD. So I was amazed and surprised to see a seedling that I started March 2019 has increased from one fan to 10 fans over the winter! (It was still just one fan in the fall). I am sure others may not find this earthshaking but even my established registered cultivars don't do that! Increase tends to be slower here because of our short growing season. I do have several seedlings that increased by 1, 2 or even 4 fans but I was shocked by that one. Have any of you in zones like mine ever had a one year old seedling do that? Is this a common occurrence in warmer climates?

I'm finding this hybridizing 'bug' to be extremely exciting. Lots of new things to learn and observe. I've had a couple of 'twins' (2 seedlings coming from a single seed) and I had some precocious 6 month old seedlings bloom last fall (late September). I didn't know I was supposed to cut the scapes so I let them bloom. The great news is they all came back after the winter. The downside to hybridizing is that I started over 700 seedlings this winter and I have no place for them!
But thanks to all of you who bought seeds and plants from me, I can now afford a dump truck load of loam and materials to make raised beds! Smiling


Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kousa
Apr 17, 2020 3:06 PM CST
Wow, that's is one VIGOROUS seedling! I have never such an experience with any seedling of mine. Can't wait to see what its bloom looks like! Can you share this seedling's cross? Wonder what is in its genetics that may explain its fast increase.
Name: Nancy
Bowling Green Kentucky (Zone 6b)
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alilyfan
Apr 17, 2020 3:30 PM CST
I agree Amazing growth! I wonder if southern hybridizers even get that kind of growth? Wondering the genetics too Hurray!
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 17, 2020 3:45 PM CST
Well, hopefully it is not like my newbie mistake when I first got into daylilies. I thought I had a miracle multiplier from a plant I bought from Lowe's ... I was so excited I posted photos of the fast growth. It turned out to be nothing unusual at all..those new fans turned out to be nut grass!
Edited to add:
I was extremely excited this year to have a seedling bloom that was started in late Aug. 2019. We have a pretty long growing period here, but I have never had any daylily multiply at that rate. I think that makes even the rate of increase of a BAP treated plant seem slow.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Apr 17, 2020 3:51 PM (+)]
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Name: Celeste
central New Hampshire (Zone 4b)
Region: New Hampshire Daylilies Hybridizer Birds Cat Lover Butterflies
Seller of Garden Stuff Roses
Image
celestialrose
Apr 17, 2020 4:02 PM CST
LOL Larry! Hilarious! It's definitely a daylily seedling! I am excited to hear from you all that it's pretty remarkable. I definitely thought it something special but wanted to run it by those who would know. It's also definitely a dormant diploid. The cross is: (Cowboy Scarf x Emerald Starburst) x RFK) X Rainbow Maker. There are 5 of that cross but this is the only seedling that increased like that. I am hoping it's beautiful Crossing Fingers! with great bud counts but more than likely I won't score on all counts. It will probably be a woofer.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 17, 2020 4:14 PM CST
Well, we will all be pulling for it to be a 30" tall, 50 bud plant with at least 8 branches! It needs to do that just to match the rate of increase!
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kousa
Apr 17, 2020 5:22 PM CST
celestialrose said:LOL Larry! Hilarious! It's definitely a daylily seedling! I am excited to hear from you all that it's pretty remarkable. I definitely thought it something special but wanted to run it by those who would know. It's also definitely a dormant diploid. The cross is: (Cowboy Scarf x Emerald Starburst) x RFK) X Rainbow Maker. There are 5 of that cross but this is the only seedling that increased like that. I am hoping it's beautiful Crossing Fingers! with great bud counts but more than likely I won't score on all counts. It will probably be a woofer.


Those are super genetics packed into one seedling! It's the best of the best! Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up

[Last edited by kousa - Apr 17, 2020 5:27 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 18, 2020 8:43 AM CST
For a daylily that becomes winter dormant to increase to 10 fans from a single fan over winter in zone 4 is surprising. My information about increase in Florida and California is that increase of 8 times is expected by some hybridizers.

How much did the other four seedlings from the cross increase over winter?

When last autumn was it still a single fan?

Did ten fans sprout from below the soil surface this spring or did fewer than ten fans sprout and then the fans which had sprouted divided?

Are the fans quite small in comparison to the fans of the other four seedlings from the same cross?

One thing that may have happened is that effectively the original fan died (the fan's growing point died). When that happens, as long as the rest of the crown is healthy, new buds sprout. Usually just one or two new smaller baby fans appear instead of one larger fan. Sometimes many small fans appear instead of the larger fan. When that happens they are often described as being "grassy" fans because there are many small fans with small leaves and they are tightly bunched together where the original fan would have been.

Are the ten fans each the same size as the fans on the other four seedlings from the cross?
Maurice
Name: Debra
Nashville, TN (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies Region: Tennessee Seed Starter
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shive1
Apr 18, 2020 11:54 AM CST
Celeste - That would be an unusual increase for any seedling grown anywhere. Even the one I called The Thing That Ate the Seedling bed only has a one to five fan increase. Like Maurice told you above, sometimes an original fan will die, and you'll get several tiny fans growing from a crown, but one to 10 is not what you would normally see. I can't wait to see what kind of blooms you get on that one!
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 18, 2020 12:09 PM CST
I looked all over the web to try and get some idea of what the normal rate of the increase would be for seedlings and this thread is the best source I found. So it seems that 1-5 is pretty normal and any thing above that is seldom seen in seedling increase. And in this case it seems to be very rare indeed.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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touchofsky
Apr 18, 2020 2:07 PM CST
I looked today at my seedlings that were planted in the ground in May and June, 2019, and there are two showing five fans. It is very early here, so some seedlings aren't showing much growth at all yet.

Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Celeste
central New Hampshire (Zone 4b)
Region: New Hampshire Daylilies Hybridizer Birds Cat Lover Butterflies
Seller of Garden Stuff Roses
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celestialrose
Apr 19, 2020 6:07 AM CST
Because of the snow and very cold temps we keep having (25 degrees at my house last night) the dormants are only barely up in some cases. This particular seedling has ONE larger fan, the SAME size as the other four seedlings of this same cross, which are up about 4 inches. The 10 fans I am referring to are all popping up around the larger fan. The new fans are not even an inch tall yet but are coming along. That's what I was surprised about. The original fan came up first (just like the other 200 seedlings in that bed) and I didn't see the new fans until a week ago when they just suddenly popped up. It was definitely a single fan in October because I inspected them nearly every day because they are my first 'babies'. I plant my seedlings in rows. There is about 8 inches separating the seedlings from each other in the rows and 18" between rows. So these belong to that one seedling and I did not lose the original seedling. I have kept close tabs with markers for each cross and I did not lose any seedlings over the winter. Hurray!
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 19, 2020 9:29 AM CST
Are the other seedlings in this cross still only single fans?

If they are, then the amount of increase is so unusual, that I expect it may not be typical of the seedling's genetic ability to increase. If that is the case then the seedling may not be able to repeat that rate of increase in other years or possibly more likely, may not be able to repeat that rate of increase when planted in other locations.

To get a better idea if that rate of increase was caused by something unusual in the seedling's environment it would need to be divided into single fans and each fan planted in a different location (different rows) and the rate of increase of the fans counted for several years.
Maurice
Name: Celeste
central New Hampshire (Zone 4b)
Region: New Hampshire Daylilies Hybridizer Birds Cat Lover Butterflies
Seller of Garden Stuff Roses
Image
celestialrose
Apr 19, 2020 9:54 AM CST
admmad said:Are the other seedlings in this cross still only single fans?

If they are, then the amount of increase is so unusual, that I expect it may not be typical of the seedling's genetic ability to increase. If that is the case then the seedling may not be able to repeat that rate of increase in other years or possibly more likely, may not be able to repeat that rate of increase when planted in other locations.

To get a better idea if that rate of increase was caused by something unusual in the seedling's environment it would need to be divided into single fans and each fan planted in a different location (different rows) and the rate of increase of the fans counted for several years.


Yes, the other four of that cross are still only single fans. I guess I will have to observe this seedling over the years and maybe do a little experimenting. Unless of course, it's really ugly and I don't plan on keeping it around that long. Hilarious!
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 19, 2020 10:08 AM CST
Even if it is an ugly duckling, it still might be worth keeping for hybridizing with beautiful plants to create a beauty that multiplies fast.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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touchofsky
Apr 19, 2020 12:14 PM CST
I am really looking forward to seeing what your seedling does, Celeste!

One seedling of mine that we joked about on the forum last year, saying it "wanted to take over the world", is now up to at least 28 fans. I counted the number of little fans coming up yesterday. I pulled out 9 dried bloom stalks yesterday from the clump. I planted it in July, 2017.
Here is a photo from July, 2019.
Thumb of 2020-04-19/touchofsky/679a05

Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Ken
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7b)
Daylilies & hardy hibiscus
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MrKGDickie
Apr 23, 2020 5:10 PM CST
Seedfork said:Well, hopefully it is not like my newbie mistake when I first got into daylilies. I thought I had a miracle multiplier from a plant I bought from Lowe's. It turned out to be nothing unusual at all..those new fans turned out to be nut grass!


Last spring I got so excited about a mystery plant growing on one of my urns out front. I knew it wasn't a weed, and I was thrilled because there were 3 or 4 plants. I posted pics on Instagram and solicited guesses. A gardening buddy in NJ said he thought it looked like one of the many members of the nightshade family, but he had no guesses as to which one.

Months later, I learned that they were indeterminate (and very thick-skinned) cherry tomatoes. D'Oh! Hilarious!
Hardy hibiscus are a hobby, but daylilies are an obsession.
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kousa
Apr 23, 2020 6:05 PM CST
MrKGDickie said:

Last spring I got so excited about a mystery plant growing on one of my urns out front. I knew it wasn't a weed, and I was thrilled because there were 3 or 4 plants. I posted pics on Instagram and solicited guesses. A gardening buddy in NJ said he thought it looked like one of the many members of the nightshade family, but he had no guesses as to which one.

Months later, I learned that they were indeterminate (and very thick-skinned) cherry tomatoes. D'Oh! Hilarious!


Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!
Name: Nancy
Bowling Green Kentucky (Zone 6b)
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alilyfan
Apr 24, 2020 5:40 AM CST
Not the case for Celeste, but i have gotten excited a couple of times thinking I had seedlings from daylily plants beside the parent. Turned out it was a grass, can't think of the name of it right now but very aggressive weed.
Name: Tina
Greenup, Ky (Zone 6b)
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beenthere
Apr 28, 2020 2:04 PM CST
I've had several winter grown seedlings from my seed purchases from @celestialrose go into the garden as double and even triple fans. Really robust seedlings!
Thumb of 2020-04-28/beenthere/efacbe

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