Daylilies forum: So long, farewell my little friends

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Name: Heidi
CT (Zone 5b)
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mom2cjemma
Apr 24, 2020 2:06 PM CST
So I have taken note of my losses from the 2019 winter. Grumbling Grumbling

This is my list of who I lost, which is approximately 5% of my plants:

Above the Clouds (received fall 2019) Ev/T
Tall Drink of Water (received 2017) Ev/T
Parrot Moon (received fall 2019)
Daughter of Destiny (received as a gift 2019) SE/T
Hot Scheme (received as a gift 2017) SE/T
Cosmic Hummingbird (received as a gift 2017) SE/D
Little Fat Cat (received 2018) SE/D

(All same grower from down south)
Aerial Display (received 2019) Ev/T
Sybil's Blue (received 2019) Ev/T
Gilded Butterfly (received 2019) SE/T
Signature Truffle (received 2019) Ev/T

(all received from same grower 2015/2016 as massive plants and just slowly dwindled down to nothing
Russian Temple SE/T
Incandescent Ev/T
Singing with Angels SE/T
Fugitive Ev/T
Broadway Debut SE/T
Orchid Prelude SE/T
Outer Space Ev/T
Spicy Connection SE/T
Happy Silver Anniversary Ev/T
California Classic Ev/T

So my observations are this: Don't get too many plants from below Virginia line, even in the spring, they have a hard time adjusting. Also, really think long and hard about SE/E that are tets from the South (and south, I mean, NC and south from my 5B gardens in CT). I have a fair share of EV and SE and most of the grow pretty well, but others just seem to fade away.

Heidi
Name: Karen
Southeast PA (Zone 6b)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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kousa
Apr 24, 2020 2:26 PM CST
Sorry for your loss, Heidi! If it's any consolation, I too lost Incandescent. It was a healthy plant to start and as you said dwindled thru the years and finally gone this winter. I am in zone 6 and it still struggled for me.
Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
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bxncbx
Apr 24, 2020 3:23 PM CST
At this point I only buy from people/places north of me. Even then, if they are EV or SEV they might not make it in my garden. This year my EVs look horrible compared to the dormants and we had a very mild winter and no spring frosts.

I guess I'm lucky because I didn't lose any plants this year. I thought I lost Doubly Hot (it's barely hanging on) but a small fan just appeared a couple of weeks ago. At this point I'm ready to punt all the ones that aren't thriving. I ordered a lot of new daylilies and I need the space.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Apr 24, 2020 3:29 PM CST

Moderator

Sorry to hear of the losses Heidi. Sad I'm planning on making the spring walk of the garden this weekend marking fan counts, foliage habit and the missing......
Name: Nancy
Bowling Green Kentucky (Zone 6b)
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alilyfan
Apr 24, 2020 5:45 PM CST
I almost never lose plants through the winter, but those delicate evergreens dwindle year to year, usually after they bloom. I do still get evergreens occasionally, but I try to check to see that people are successfully growing it north of me. Only took me about 10 years to work that out, probably because I do have some great evergreen daylilies.
Name: Heidi
CT (Zone 5b)
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mom2cjemma
Apr 24, 2020 5:54 PM CST
So I do have other Evergreens that flourish I feel like the SE tend to be more finicky
Heidi
Name: Greg
central North Carolina (Zone 7b)
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gregnc
Apr 24, 2020 6:34 PM CST
Heidi and Nancy,
First - Heidi, sorry to hear of the losses in your garden. That's unfortunate.

Could you both list some of the evergreen daylilies that flourish for you? I think many of us would be interested in hearing which registered evergreens do well in your climates. And...do the ones registered as evergreen actually behave that way in your gardens?

I remember chat on this forum about tender and hardy evergreens. I believe this...just as I believe there are dormants and hard dormants.

I'm in a milder climate than you (central NC). I don't grow many evergreens, but they are very noticeable in late winter/early spring. In fact I find this is the best time to judge the foliage of named cultivars and seedlings. Even in my climate, I love the dormants, their foliage is always clean and fresh, and generally make the best looking clumps before flowering.
Name: Heidi
CT (Zone 5b)
Always find the awesome in your day
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mom2cjemma
Apr 24, 2020 7:29 PM CST
Some Evergreens that do well for me include
Prickly Sensation
Haleiwa
Little Maggie
Earlybird Cardinal
Little Ana Rosa
Pandora's Box
Fujitani
Winemaker

And SE include
Stella's Ruffled Fingers
Grace & Grandeur
Kiya Papaya
Lily Munster
Blackthorne
Entrapment
Janice Brown
Oktoberfest
Sue Rothbauer
Waves becomes Wings
Daring Deception
Daring Dilemma
Lacy Doily
May May
Indian Giver,
Romantic Dreams
Tomorrows Dreams
Strawberry Candy


Heidi
Name: Greg
central North Carolina (Zone 7b)
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gregnc
Apr 25, 2020 1:53 AM CST
Thanks for the list Heidi...many there I don't know, I'll check them out!
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Apr 25, 2020 4:57 AM CST
This list below is older so doesn't include the latest and greatest but may be of interest:

Hardy Evergreen Poll from the AHS email Robin 20 years ago:

http://www.shieldsgardens.com/...

To answer Greg's question, no not all registered evergreens behave as such in my Zone 4 garden, 'Priscilla's Rainbow' is one registered evergreen that obviously sets dormant buds (indicated by the two short outer leaves as it emerges in spring). Now it may have been dormant in the warmer climate where it originated too but the original leaves were not killed by cold there so it stayed green, and thus was registered as evergreen, but there's no reason why any of the foliage types can't be hardy, which has more to do with where they originated.

I would add that I think it is way too early in zone 5 to be writing anything off as definitely dead. Here in Zone 4 I was told when I first got into daylilies to give them until at least June. Sometimes the main growing point is killed and new shoots emerge from the side of the crown and it takes longer for these to appear above the surface. Once in a while I have gone to dig up where one apparently hadn't made it and found the poor thing just starting to sprout. Disturbing them at this point seems to push them over the edge. Struggling in one winter, especially their first, doesn't inevitably mean they will do it again.

Name: Nancy
Bowling Green Kentucky (Zone 6b)
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alilyfan
Apr 25, 2020 6:56 AM CST
I checked, and actually have a long list of evergreens that have done well. I have more that have done modestly well, and recently added a few more that I got from more northerly gardens. The following have been here at least 5 years, survived -0 degree temps, and multiplied well.
Annabelle' Blush
Bold Red Eye
Born to Run does well, don't really recommend because splotchy sometimes. Beautiful though
Butterfly Moon
Cameroons
Caribbean Eye Spy
Choral Fantasy
Citrix
De Colores
Electric Horseman, only 3 yrs but outstanding
Evening Enchantment
Fancy Face
Gift from Heaven
Harbor Blue
Heavens Proclaim
Incendiary
Inherited Wealth
John Kirkland
Lavender Cascades
Lotus Position
Msl
Morticia
My Mama Thinks I am a Star, 4 years
Palace Garden Beauty
Pandora's Treasure
Rapid Eye Movement
Russian Easter
Sherry Lane Carr
Spacecoast Francis Busby, one of 2 Spacecoasts that has done well for me
String Theory
Thin Man
Tooth
Two Part Harmony
Web of Intrigue
Wild Horses
Name: Heidi
CT (Zone 5b)
Always find the awesome in your day
Daylilies Garden Photography Region: Northeast US Region: United States of America Hibiscus Birds
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mom2cjemma
Apr 25, 2020 7:07 AM CST
I just went through the list from 2000, of the plants listed, I have
Pandora's Box
Wisteria (newer so don't have good stats on it yet, although it really prospered last year)
Peacock Maiden (just arrived from NH)
Birds Eye (just arrived from NH)

Many of the plants I listed, were down to just 1 or maybe 2 fans last year, several had been repotted and put in a more protected place in hopes of keeping them happy over the winter (I would hope after 4 growing seasons that there would be more than 1-2 fans....). Because of our warmer winter, everything is already growing by leaps and bounds. Most of my daylilies are now anywhere from 4-5 inches tall to some being ridiculously big (like Pandora's Box).
So PB really has stood out all spring and I just happened to get these photos

Thumb of 2020-04-25/mom2cjemma/fba291 taken March 6

Thumb of 2020-04-25/mom2cjemma/1f8379 taken March 22

Thumb of 2020-04-25/mom2cjemma/36dc3e taken April 9

Thumb of 2020-04-25/mom2cjemma/061a59 taken today






Heidi
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Apr 25, 2020 8:13 AM CST
mom2cjemma said:I just went through the list from 2000, of the plants listed, I have
Pandora's Box
Wisteria (newer so don't have good stats on it yet, although it really prospered last year)



I've had both of those for many years, both are tough as nails here. 'Wisteria' is beautiful and a favourite of mine.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 25, 2020 8:48 AM CST
Pandora's Box is a very good example of a daylily that was hybridized in a climate with mild winters (Florida) and that was registered as an evergreen (meaning that it might keep some green leaves during mild winters) but that grows showing that it goes winter dormant (meaning that it creates a bud from which it will sprout) in cold winter climates. I have added white arrows (to one of Heidi's photos) pointing to the small outer leaves that are an indication that 'Pandora's Box' sets buds and then sprouts from those buds in the next spring.

In the case of 'Pandora's Box' the entire sprout in the spring indicates that it was winter dormant and sprouts from buds rather than simply continuing to grow from where it had stopped growing the previous autumn.

Thumb of 2020-04-25/admmad/9b72e6

Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Apr 25, 2020 12:34 PM (+)]
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Name: Greg
central North Carolina (Zone 7b)
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gregnc
Apr 25, 2020 10:46 AM CST
Heidi, Nancy, Sue, and Maurice,
Thanks for all the great information!

Nancy, thanks for your list and comments!
Sue, I appreciate seeing that Hardy Evergreen Poll. I've grown many of these in the past, some old favorites there.
Heidi, great photo sequence! I used to grow Pandora's Box when I lived in NY.
Maurice and Sue, thanks for pointing out the small outer leaves...nice photo showing them.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Apr 25, 2020 11:15 AM CST
@adm I tip my hat to you. mad
After seeing your photo, Maurice, I took these photos today of a couple of seedlings.
Russian Easter x Ornamental Focus (both evergreens, but seedling behaving as a dormant). The seedling in question is the one in front.
Thumb of 2020-04-25/touchofsky/e25cfa

Malaysian Monarch (SEV) x Destined to See (EV). The seedling in front.
Thumb of 2020-04-25/touchofsky/5e9857

How do you classify this? Would it behave as an EV in the south?

Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 25, 2020 12:32 PM CST
@touchofsky

The seedlings from the parents ('Russian Easter' x 'Ornamental Focus') and those from the parents ( 'Malaysian Monarch' x 'Destined to See') are growing as if they had set buds - they are sprouting from those buds and so were winter dormant. You would register them as being dormant. You register them as they grow in your garden.

We have no way of knowing how they would grow in other locations and in other growing conditions. Those are different environments. We do not have enough knowledge about winter dormancy in daylilies to be able to predict how any daylily would act in other locations and growing conditions. Importantly, since each daylily seedling is genetically different from every other daylily seedling we cannot predict from the way one seedling acts to the way others would act in the same locations or growing conditions.

Every characteristic (phenotype) is determined by Genotype + Environment + (Genotype X Environment Interaction). This is abbreviated as P = G + E + GE.
Sometimes G and GE have little or no effect so the characteristic is basically determined by the environment. Sometimes GE has little or no effect so the characteristic is basically determined by the genotype and the environment. Sometimes E and GE have little or no effect and the characteristic is basically determined by the genotype. And so on.

In the case of growth habit -
Setting a winter bud - becoming winter dormant
OR not setting a winter bud - being evergreen (actually being evergrowing)
Or setting a winter bud - becoming winter dormant but keeping some green leaves during winter - semi-evergreen.
is a characteristic that in daylilies is probably affected by Genotype, Environment and their Interaction - or all three.
The result is that we cannot predict perfectly how all cultivars will act under different circumstances (in other locations and in other growing conditions) from how they act in our garden and growing conditions.

Foliage habit is a different characteristic that has the same sort of problem(s).
A cultivar can lose all its leaves in the autumn - that is it is deciduous
OR
a cultivar may keep some green leaves during the entire year - that is it is evergreen.
Which it does may change in different locations and in different growing conditions.
Maurice
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Apr 25, 2020 1:52 PM CST
"Or setting a winter bud - becoming winter dormant but keeping some green leaves during winter - semi-evergreen."

There seem to be several different interpretations of semi-evergreen. Another is that they do not set a dormant bud and just the old leaf bases stay green with the tops of the leaves dead.

The Registration Guidelines say "The foliage of these daylilies dies back nearly to the ground in very cold climates. Some green will be seen near the base. Generally semi-evergreens wait until spring to resume growth".

That definition is a little open to interpretation.

Maurice, are you defining semi-evergreen as a growth characteristic independent of registration foliage categories or is that also your interpretation of the registration category semi-evergreen?
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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touchofsky
Apr 25, 2020 2:16 PM CST
Under that interpretation, would the one in the second photo, Malaysian Monarch x Destined to See be a SEV?The top of the leaves are brown, but the bottom half is coming up green.

The other sdlg in photo two, is Spiritual Corridor x Steely Blue Eyes (both parents SEV), and it is behaving the same way, the ends of the leaves are brown.
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 25, 2020 9:26 PM CST
@sooby
Maurice, are you defining semi-evergreen as a growth characteristic independent of registration foliage categories or is that also your interpretation of the registration category semi-evergreen?


I'm not sure if this answers you question completely.

From the daylily dictionary entry for dormant,
"Dormancy is a temporary suspension of visible growth of any plant structure containing a meristem*. The term "dormant" is not restricted to deciduous plants but applies also to evergreen and semi-evergreen plants, which can retain some, or all, of their foliage while having dormant buds."

The entry for evergreen indicates "Evergreen daylilies do not set resting buds." No such stipulation is provided for semi-evergreen daylilies.

I would consider growth habit to include winter dormant, summer dormant, evergrowing.

I would consider foliage habit to include deciduous, evergreen.

I, personally, would not use semi-evergreen in describing any daylily. I also would not use evergreen for daylily foliage as many daylilies are unable to maintain normal living foliage in winter even in parts of Florida. I would describe the foliage of daylilies registered as "evergreen" as typically winter-damaged except in regions with the mildest of winters (subtropical?). Perhaps foliage habit should be deciduous (winter absent) versus winter-damaged (winter-some green present). Foliage habit (winter) might then be absent/some green present. Growth habit might be bud (winter) present/absent (summer) present/absent.

One thing I should note. In my tests (growing daylilies inside during winter) I have not found any daylilies registered as evergreen and hybridized in Florida (that are probably evergrowing in parts of Florida) that do not set buds. They may not lose all their leaves at one time (they have not been deciduous) but they are capable of setting buds.
Maurice

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