Daylilies forum→So long, farewell my little friends

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Name: Mike
Hazel Crest, IL (Zone 5b)
"Have no patience for bare ground"
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Hazelcrestmikeb
Apr 25, 2020 11:27 PM CST
In addition to Sue's suggestion. Our own @Larryr has compiled a long list. Some of you have seen this before.
https://cottageinthemeadow.pla...
robinseeds.com
"Life as short as it is, is amazing, isn't it. MichaelBurton
"Be your best you". "Mikedon" on the LA.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Apr 26, 2020 5:40 AM CST
"I'm not sure if this answers you question completely"

No, not really Smiling I meant do you consider that the definition you gave of semi-evergreen fits the AHS foliage habit definition of semi-evergreen, which is a little ambiguous and different people seem to interpret it in different ways. (This is regardless of what any of us feel about the relevance of the registration foliage habit categories, I'm just interested in how different people are interpreting semi-evergreen for registration purposes).

BTW the line about evergreens not setting dormant buds is not in the registration instructions, only in the Daylily Dictionary.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters Irises Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
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touchofsky
Apr 26, 2020 6:42 AM CST
I seem to have two types of behaviour with regard to the foliage over the winter. In one, the foliage dies back to the ground completely. If you remove the dead foliage there is nothing above the ground, or if anything remains it is completely brown and dry, and with a tug, it comes off. In spring, the plant sends up nice, fresh green buds.

In the second, the foliage cannot be pulled off. Some green and brown foliage remains above ground. Sometimes a bit mushy where it is frozen, but still firmly attached to the crown. When this starts to grow in the spring, it grows from this foliage, and can appear a little ratty, with the ends of the old foliage brown and dead, but growing.

Where I am confused, is would the first be considered dormant (deciduous), and the second semi-evergreen, or are they both dormant (deciduous)?

When reading the instructions for registering a daylily on AHS, I would have said the first is dormant and the second is semi-evergreen.

Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Apr 26, 2020 7:48 AM CST
Valerie I would have said that for registration purposes the first is "dormant" and the second is semi-evergreen although in our climate perhaps it could also have been evergreen. However from a scientific perspective both were dormant (not visibly growing) in winter, but only one was deciduous (the first). Remember that a daylily can be dormant scientifically even when it still has green leaves.
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters Irises Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
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touchofsky
Apr 26, 2020 7:56 AM CST
I am not planning to register any of them, but I was just curious as to what I was seeing, and I like to keep notes for my own reference. It is rather confusing to say the least!
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters Irises Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
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touchofsky
Apr 26, 2020 8:01 AM CST
I also want to thank you both, Maurice and Sue for your knowledge! Thank You!
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 26, 2020 9:26 AM CST
@sooby
I meant do you consider that the definition you gave of semi-evergreen fits the AHS foliage habit definition of semi-evergreen, which is a little ambiguous and different people seem to interpret it in different ways. (This is regardless of what any of us feel about the relevance of the registration foliage habit categories, I'm just interested in how different people are interpreting semi-evergreen for registration purposes).


I wrote "setting a winter bud - becoming winter dormant but keeping some green leaves during winter - semi-evergreen."

Yes, I think that fits the AHS foliage habit definition for semi-evergreen. That is what I consider semi-evergreens to be.

BTW the line about evergreens not setting dormant buds is not in the registration instructions, only in the Daylily Dictionary.


Yes. Shouldn't all AHS material use the same definitions?

Maurice
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 26, 2020 9:59 AM CST
@touchofsky
I seem to have two types of behaviour with regard to the foliage over the winter. In one, the foliage dies back to the ground completely. If you remove the dead foliage there is nothing above the ground, or if anything remains it is completely brown and dry, and with a tug, it comes off. In spring, the plant sends up nice, fresh green buds.

I would describe this daylily to be deciduous because the leaves die completely.
I would describe this daylily as having set a bud and therefore being winter dormant.

In the second, the foliage cannot be pulled off. Some green and brown foliage remains above ground. Sometimes a bit mushy where it is frozen, but still firmly attached to the crown. When this starts to grow in the spring, it grows from this foliage, and can appear a little ratty, with the ends of the old foliage brown and dead, but growing.


This one would require more observations in the autumn. There are some daylilies that grow leaves in the spring and then all those leaves die in the autumn. They have a bud more or less underground at that time. However, that bud may then sprout in the autumn. That happens in some locations every year and in other locations in some years when the autumn weather stays warmer than usual for longer than usual. The leaves from that sprouted bud may not become very long or may have enough time to develop and become their mature length before the temperatures drop too low for continued growth.

The questions then become,
1) Are the damaged leaves that regrow in the spring from the first flush of leaves of the previous year or are they from a second flush of leaves in the previous year?
2) Does it grow from damaged leaves every spring or in some springs does it grow from a bud?

If it grows from damaged leaves every year with no sign of leaves growing from sprouting buds then I would consider it as being "evergreen" meaning "evergrowing".
If it grows from damaged leaves only in some springs, after extra growth in the previous autumns and it grows from buds in other years then I would consider it as "dormant" meaning it is capable of setting a bud.
If the damaged leaves it grows from in the spring are from the first flush of leaves grown in the previous year then I would consider it as "evergreen" meaning "evergrowing".
If the damaged leaves it grows from in the spring are from the second flush of leaves then I would consider it as "dormant" meaning it is capable of setting a bud. That bud may start to sprout in the previous autumn and then its growth stops because the temperatures drop too low for growth or it may not start to sprout until the next spring. If it starts to grow in the previous autumn it may then simply continue growing the next spring from where it left off the previous autumn. In a different location with a different length growing season it might have been a more orthodox "dormant" (shorter growing season - no second flush of leaves). In a different location with a sufficiently longer growing season it might also be a more orthodox "dormant" (the growing season would need to be long enough for the second flush of leaves to fully develop and for a new bud to be formed that would then not have enough time to sprout before it became to cold for growth).

Maurice
Name: Arlene
Florida's east coast (Zone 9a)
Tropicals Daylilies Bromeliad Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers Birds
Garden Photography
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florange
Apr 26, 2020 10:20 AM CST
I think something we have to keep in mind is that many hybridizers describe their daylilies as semi-evergreen so they appeal to more consumers. I think in many cases it has nothing to do with growth habits. It's a marketing decision.
[Last edited by florange - Apr 26, 2020 12:07 PM (+)]
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Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters Irises Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
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touchofsky
Apr 26, 2020 12:01 PM CST
Thumb of 2020-04-26/touchofsky/7b6ce7

This photo shows three that are dormant, but in the case of the one at the front on the left, it looks to me like last year's growth. So, in this case, I would have to observe its behaviour the previous year? However, I do not remember seeing daylilies go dormant in the fall and then grow a new flush of leaves here before winter. Our fall weather has not been warm for long enough for that to happen, as yet. Although, with climate change, I suppose that could happen.

I will have to watch closely this autumn.

I hope this discussion isn't becoming tedious, for the experts, but I am learning a lot and I thank you.
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 26, 2020 3:22 PM CST
@touchofsky
I have added arrows pointing to the tips of two of the leaves of the fan at the front, on the left below.

Thumb of 2020-04-26/admmad/414f7d

I think that those cold damaged areas may be evidence that the particular fan had started growth earlier than the other fans this spring and that the leaf tips were damaged by a little below freezing temperatures perhaps once or twice, earlier this spring. I suspect that those leaves (the bud) had not started growth last autumn. I would expect significantly greater cold damage to leaves that had sprouted late last year.

On leaves that had sprouted late last year I would expect that the leaf damage would be more severe. I would expect that a much larger section of the end of leaf would be completely destroyed and missing with the remaining sections of the leaves showing torn jagged edges.




Maurice
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Apr 26, 2020 3:46 PM CST
I've often seen deciduous daylilies die back in fall and then put up a few new sprouts before winter, but having said that Valerie's plant doesn't look to me as though it had set a dormant bud, it looks like the short outer leaves were frozen off rather than "bud scales" and therefore could be (in AHS terms) semi-ev or ev. Which just shows how difficult this all is Hilarious!
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 26, 2020 4:39 PM CST
@touchofsky
I went out looking for examples of plants that might have sprouted last autumn. Below might be one, but without having a formal record of its behaviour last autumn, who knows? In any case, that is the sort of damage I would expect to see on plants that had overwintered above ground in one form or another.

Thumb of 2020-04-26/admmad/cfb5e9

Maurice
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters Irises Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
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touchofsky
Apr 26, 2020 5:43 PM CST
I am going to have to be more vigilant and keep track of the growth habits both in the fall and spring, especially for any of the crosses that I particularly like and think might show promise.

Also, I wonder if growing locations make a difference. We tend to have very good snow cover here and my daylilies are never exposed during winter thaws. They are covered by about three feet of snow.

I agree, Sue, it is difficult to sort out, that is for sure Hilarious!

As I mentioned earlier, I am learning so much!
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Apr 26, 2020 7:20 PM CST
@touchofsky
Also, I wonder if growing locations make a difference. We tend to have very good snow cover here and my daylilies are never exposed during winter thaws. They are covered by about three feet of snow.


Yes, growing conditions and locations will have an effect. I'm not sure what the effect of continuous snow cover to a depth of three feet would have on dormancy. However, I can speculate that it might protect the leaves as it would protect the crown. I have dug down through approximately one foot of snow cover in two winters and the ground was not frozen here. Continuous snow cover of sufficient depth is known to be protective (protecting less hardy plants).

How much you fertilize your plants with nitrogen will affect their growth patterns. I use 'Heavenly Harmony' as a test plant. When I do not provide nitrogen fertilizer it sprouts in the spring, has a visible scape by the first week of June and does not grow any more new leaves after about the third week of June. It is dormant all summer. In the autumn its leaves all yellow and die. The tips of its overwintering buds then become barely visible at the soil surface. If I provide nitrogen fertilizer in the fall and early spring then the plants produce their scapes but continue to produce new leaves for much of the summer. It grows continuously all summer. In the autumn they lose their leaves and the buds sprout significantly further above the soil. Providing sufficient nitrogen allows the plants to produce more growth.

Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Apr 27, 2020 7:50 AM (+)]
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Name: Diana
Lincoln, NE (Zone 5b)
Daylilies Region: Nebraska Organic Gardener Dog Lover Bookworm
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ShakespearesGarden
Apr 26, 2020 7:28 PM CST
Sorry to toss this back on topic- feel free to continue the discussion! I find it fascinating and wish I had more access to my plants in winter (they're being hosted by a not-quite-local landscaping company).

In any case, I am super excited to report that I did not lose a single registered variety over the winter. I have a few that are still single fans (Shakespeare's Red, Mystic Red Dragon) and others that started as single fans and are beyond DF (Vampire Fish 3!, and Digital Dynamics 5!).

I did lose some seedlings do to heaving. I think I lost less than a half dozen so I'm sighing in relief.

*edited to fix typos*
Bravery is not being unafraid. Bravery is being afraid and living life anyways.
[Last edited by ShakespearesGarden - Apr 26, 2020 8:07 PM (+)]
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