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May 2, 2020 6:42 PM CST
Name: Mary
Tennessee (Zone 7a)
Bee Lover Peonies Native Plants and Wildflowers Irises Keeps Goats Dog Lover
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Since no one took me up on starting this thread—y'all iris hybridizers being such busy folk Smiling I will start the thread and perhaps plagiarize everyone by writing a book. We live in a post-expertise world, so I feel well qualified to write on a topic about which I know nothing whatsoever. Whistling

As I have plenty of time on my hands, I will kick off with the first question. Last night while combing through old threads on this forum, I came across the "Show Us Your Schreiner's Thread." I was impressed and envious as I always am of people who have lots of irises and no time on their hands. But I digress. In post #744836, Arlyn lamented the possible fact of certain Schreiner's irises no longer existing or at least no longer obtainable. The no longer obtainable part did not surprise me. But the no longer existing part surprised me a lot. Hitherto, I had assumed that breeders like Schreiner's and Cayeaux would have complete iris libraries containing every iris they had ever introduced. Do they not? And if not, why not?
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May 2, 2020 6:54 PM CST
Name: Tom
Southern Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Butterflies Vegetable Grower Keeper of Poultry Irises Keeps Horses Dog Lover
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Wisconsin Celebrating Gardening: 2015
As any good librarian would tell you, weeding no longer interesting or out dated books is important to maintaining a good literary collection. Not every book is entitled to a for ever spot on the shelf. I understand how people who make their living selling irises must for the sake of profit, eliminate those that are not marketable, and use that space and the energy to maintain it for ones that are more marketable. Not every iris introduced is going to merit a forever spot in the gardens of the world. Those special ones that do, are going to be the classic ones that not only are interesting and beautiful, but strong enough to withstand the adversity that mother nature and man kind can dish out. So too the classic books will remain on the shelves. Smiling
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities,"
Last edited by tveguy3 May 3, 2020 12:27 PM Icon for preview
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May 2, 2020 8:29 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
People in HIPS do the best job of preserving irises. Historic Iris preservation society. Even schreiners with all their acerage must concentrate on production.
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May 4, 2020 6:47 PM CST
Name: Greg Hodgkinson
Hanover PA (Zone 6b)
Garden Photography Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Region: Japan Region: Pennsylvania
I will add to Tom's point with this tidbit:

............and the general public who don't know or care that the iris has a specific name; they just like it because it is pretty.
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May 8, 2020 12:42 PM CST
Name: Mary
Tennessee (Zone 7a)
Bee Lover Peonies Native Plants and Wildflowers Irises Keeps Goats Dog Lover
Daylilies Composter Cat Lover Bulbs Butterflies Keeper of Poultry
So ... I am curious. Which people on this forum are iris vendors and hybridizers?
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May 8, 2020 7:49 PM CST
Name: Mary
Tennessee (Zone 7a)
Bee Lover Peonies Native Plants and Wildflowers Irises Keeps Goats Dog Lover
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In the middle of a discussion with a newly minted agricultural student, I mentioned that modern irises do not come true from seed. His response was that this was an example of poor hybridizing. I said I didn't think it was, but I lacked sufficient scientific literacy to back up my response. I took my last botany course almost 40 years ago and most of what I learned didn't stick. So ... can someone explain the science to me and point me to some secondary reading on genetics. I feel embarrassed that I do not know the answers.
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May 8, 2020 9:16 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
AIS puts out a book 'The World of Iris' which is worth reading. it is a mix of iris history & genetics. not true from seed is a strange way of putting it. It is like saying people don't all have babies which all look alike. Each seed has its own genetic mix & the traits go one from there.
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May 8, 2020 10:02 PM CST
Name: Mary
Tennessee (Zone 7a)
Bee Lover Peonies Native Plants and Wildflowers Irises Keeps Goats Dog Lover
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irisarian said:AIS puts out a book 'The World of Iris' which is worth reading. it is a mix of iris history & genetics. not true from seed is a strange way of putting it. It is like saying people don't all have babies which all look alike. Each seed has its own genetic mix & the traits go one from there.


I am just using the phrase that is used in the database.

Other kinds of plants do come true from seed: I collect seed from my zinnias, poppies, vegetables ... every year. They look just the same the following year. This is rather different from iris ... except I suppose species iris.
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May 8, 2020 10:23 PM CST
Plants SuperMod
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Region: Australia Cat Lover Bookworm Hybridizer
Orchids Lilies Irises Seed Starter Container Gardener Garden Photography
I always understood "not true from seed" to be a standard botanical phrase used to indicate that the offspring are not similar to the parent. Hybrids do not come true from seed; i.e. they won't necessarily look or grow like their parents. Species and strains are the only ones that do.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
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May 9, 2020 6:10 AM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
If hybrids didn't differ we would not have as much fun developing new ones. Even your zinnias etc were originally developed. The 'poor hybridizing' remark shows the person did not know what type of plant he was dealing with. Therefore I suggest a lot of reading to start with before discussion. The terms used in hybridizing can be strange to someone who has no background to start with.
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May 9, 2020 8:11 AM CST
Name: Mary
Tennessee (Zone 7a)
Bee Lover Peonies Native Plants and Wildflowers Irises Keeps Goats Dog Lover
Daylilies Composter Cat Lover Bulbs Butterflies Keeper of Poultry
Lucy,

I read the piece about hybridizing on the Winterberry site. I was tired when I read it, but I got a little lost. Is there a Dummies Guide to Hybridizing and Genetics out there?
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May 9, 2020 10:20 AM CST
Name: Evelyn
Sierra foothills, Northern CA (Zone 8a)
Irises Region: Ukraine Garden Procrastinator Bee Lover Butterflies Plant and/or Seed Trader
Region: California Cat Lover Deer Bulbs Foliage Fan Annuals
Mary ~ There is a Dummies Guide to Botany. It is a good place to start.
"Luck favors the prepared mind." - Thomas Jefferson
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May 9, 2020 9:01 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Actually I would reread the Winterberry site when you are fresh. What did you not understand? Perhaps some of us could help.
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May 9, 2020 9:07 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Start where he tells the difference between tetrepoid & dipoid irises. Only MTBs are dipoids as a rule so you are dealing with the tets or 4 sets of chromosomes.
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May 9, 2020 9:58 PM CST
Plants SuperMod
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Plant Database Moderator Forum moderator Region: Australia Cat Lover Bookworm Hybridizer
Orchids Lilies Irises Seed Starter Container Gardener Garden Photography
Tetraploids are also referred to as 4N and Diploids as 2N.

Diploids provide one set of chromosomes their offspring. Tetraploids provide two. 4Ns tend to be more substantial and the fact that they have 4 sets of chromosomes means that you can get a lot more combinations and hence variation in the offspring.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
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May 10, 2020 6:21 AM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Good point Australis. back a few posts, I think the comment of' newly minted agriculture student' shows that he better go back to school. The veggie he is probably referring to took a lot of developing before the reached 'coming true from seed' state of affairs.
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May 10, 2020 9:37 AM CST
Name: Timothy
NE Oregon (Zone 7b)
crop and ornamental plant genetics was a semester of study way back when, as i was becoming a "newly minted" horticulture student many many years ago. By the end of the semester i was relatively thoroughly versed in gene ploidy, recombinant gene characteristics, genotypic and phenotypic expressions, chomosomal characteristics and mutations, basic genome mapping, basic DNA analysis, etc.

Any student who didn't know his F1's from his F2's or couldn't explain the difference between a cultivar, hybrid, or strain at the very least was regarded with condescending pity .......

For a young iris lover like myself, this opened up a world of understanding in regards to my very limited and nascent iris hybridizing attempts. My professor was moderately intrigued by my iris hybridizing interest, and although he didn't grow iris, his observations from a scientific point of view on iris characteristics was fascinating to me, and rather astute, due to the fact he basically knew nothing about iris growing or breeding.
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May 10, 2020 8:00 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
MTBs are coming out with pinks which are Tet. Any pink iris is a tet. In the TBs when they appeared people thought someone had painted them, not knowing they were tetraploid. It caused a sensation when they appeared in the1940s. Smiling
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May 11, 2020 8:26 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
To go back to one of your earlier questions, my husband & I both have hybridized medians, but don't sell them. No space for one reason. A club member in MA did for awhile but they retired & Winterberry irises in VA kindly agreed to take us on. It was very good of them as they sell their own plants. They also sell for a couple other minor hybridizers.
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May 11, 2020 9:25 PM CST
Name: Mary
Tennessee (Zone 7a)
Bee Lover Peonies Native Plants and Wildflowers Irises Keeps Goats Dog Lover
Daylilies Composter Cat Lover Bulbs Butterflies Keeper of Poultry
irisarian said:MTBs are coming out with pinks which are Tet. Any pink iris is a tet. In the TBs when they appeared people thought someone had painted them, not knowing they were tetraploid. It caused a sensation when they appeared in the1940s. Smiling


Wow. I would like to know more. Smiling

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