Lilies forum→Important discussion about our lily database

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Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
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Lucius93
May 4, 2020 4:15 PM CST
Do you agree that The RHS Lily Register (and his supplements) should be our Bible here for the lily database or not? If not why are we even using it during our discussions for reference and why is he sticky topic atop of this page if it is not relevant? Why am i asking this?
In the past few days i spent my time searching our database here. I proposed some corrections because some pictures were in the wrong area and also some lily names were wrong. Ofc i used RHS lily register for those name corrections because that register is accepted worldwide and it's the best source about lily species and hybrids (or i thought it is). Moderator (pardalinum) checked my proposals and accepted them. Two days ago i found this lily:
Thumb of 2020-05-04/Lucius93/077106
Never heard about him before so i checked internet and RHS lily register. Since 1990. onwards this lily is registered as separate species (lilium wenshanense) not a synonym of l. brownii var. brownii. There is no lilium brownii var. brownii in RHS register. I said that to pardalinum and i got interesting answer: "The resource that the administrators here use is The Catalog of Life (CoL)" because "...taxonomy that is used throughout this database and across all genera is based on DNA studies,..."
1. why would you take info from CoL as right if any other book/internet site/registers/peoples separate this lily as own species?
2. if database is based on DNA studies we would like to see those studies, papers, publications about this lily. If there is none then we should not use these informations.
3. if the CoL is the real resource of this database then RHS register should be abandoned and not be cited in the future because there are clearly some different species informations in register compared to CoL.
4. we should also avoid double standards. We can't accept some informations from RHS register as right and reject others as false just because.

Your opinion?
[Last edited by Lucius93 - May 4, 2020 4:20 PM (+)]
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Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
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Australis
May 4, 2020 7:20 PM CST

Moderator

The Catalogue of Life is used as the species reference for this site across all plant genera, not just Liliums. That is not going to change. The whole point of the COL is that the entries are supported by studies and scientific publications. Of course, there can be a delay between research being published and the COL being updated, so please don't be surprised if it takes 12-18 months to see a new species added or a classification change implemented.

The RHS, as the ICRA for Liliums, is the go-to source for any hybrids or cultivated selections of species. It will always be used as the source reference for these.

It is important to note that the current RHS register was last overhauled in 2007. All documents since then have been addendums that, for the most part, are new hybrid registrations. L. wenshanense is listed in the 2007 register; the change to L. brownii var. brownii as the accepted name occurred in 2011. So the reason you don't see this particular example is that the RHS simply has not added it as an amendment yet.

The other important point to note is that the RHS registers (both Lilium and Orchids) are not intended as exhaustive lists of all species and their synonyms; that is not what the ICRAs are for. They also tend to lag behind the COL in being updated in this respect.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
Köppen Climate Zone Csa
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Lucius93
May 5, 2020 4:07 AM CST
Thanks for the explanation but it's not scientific to change something before you publish your research. It's total nonsense. The last published paper you can find on the internet was in 2012. where you can find descriptions of every lily species in Yunnan. Brownii var. brownii and weshanense have very similar (almost identical) flower but every other aspect of the plant (bulb, leaves, height, flowering time) is different. They can't be synonyms. Maybe they can, don't get me wrong, but i can't take seriously something without proof. I am scientist in real life so i know what i am talking about.

L. wenshanense is listed in the 2007 register; the change to L. brownii var. brownii as the accepted name occurred in 2011.
Earlier in the post you said: "so please don't be surprised if it takes 12-18 months to see a new species added or a classification change implemented
The time between 2011. and 2020. is not 12-18 months period. 9 years have passed and there is still no publication so i am not surprised there is big confusion here.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
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Australis
May 5, 2020 5:19 AM CST

Moderator

Hi Lucius,

I meant that it can take 12 months or so for changes to appear in the COL after the research is published. There's then a bit of delay between us spotting the changes and implementing them here.

L. brownii var. brownii is not listed in the RHS register, whereas L. wenshanense is in the original 2007 entry. I may have misunderstood the dating on KEW's World Checklist of Selected Plants (which lists the accepted date of L. brownii var. brownii as 2011) and so it may have been later than 2011 when the change was made. That said, research has been published as early as 2014 arguing for wenshanense to be merged into brownii (see below). The COL reflects this change; the RHS register does not. So as I said, the RHS has lagged in amending the entry for this species.

I fully agree with you that it's not appropriate to change something before publishing. But I also know the the RHS and KEW don't just change things without reason - there is a reason. I know several papers on taxonomic revisions of the Lilium genus have been published over the last decade and the relevant one I can quickly find is Gao (2014):

https://www.researchgate.net/p...

I am more than happy to dig through all the papers I have collected if you would like more evidence.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
Köppen Climate Zone Csa
Lilies Bulbs Seed Starter Xeriscape Container Gardener Sempervivums
Enjoys or suffers hot summers Garden Photography Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer Region: Europe
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Lucius93
May 5, 2020 6:52 AM CST
Thank you very much for the explanation. Smiling
Since i love lily species i like to be up to date with new informations. And since i couldn't find anything myself and every nursery, lily lover and internet pages calles it weshanense, i was confused with NGA and CoL database entry.

Do you know any other example of lily species change? Pardalinum said something about henryi var citrinum which is now just henryi.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
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Australis
May 5, 2020 7:06 AM CST

Moderator

You're most welcome.

I will dig through my list of papers tomorrow for you. There have been quite a few taxonomical revisions, especially as more genetic data has become available (there was quite an extensive article on this in the most recent NALS Quarterly Bulletin, if you have access to that, and I haven't gotten around to updating the links in my signature with the latest data referenced in it yet).

Most of the various colour forms in many genera are not regarded as separate taxa any more (i.e. L. henryi var. citrinum) because often this colour difference is down to a single allele that enables/disables a particular pigment. In fact, based on my current understanding of taxonomical labelling, the different colours forms should be labelled as "forma" i.e. "f. flavum" rather than variety/var.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
Seed Starter Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography Forum moderator Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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Australis
May 5, 2020 7:10 AM CST

Moderator

I should also add that nurseries and many websites do not keep up with the latest taxonomical revisions. In the Orchid family (which is another of my hobbies), there are people still using older names when they were changed 40 years ago. Many of the taxonomical revisions in the last few decades have been very slow to be picked up nurseries and enthusiasts. It makes for a real headache and the reason why I have a giant spreadsheet telling me the old and current names, as well as ensuring the previous hybrid genus is recorded in the NGA database whenever things get reclassified!
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
Köppen Climate Zone Csa
Lilies Bulbs Seed Starter Xeriscape Container Gardener Sempervivums
Enjoys or suffers hot summers Garden Photography Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer Region: Europe
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Lucius93
May 5, 2020 8:14 AM CST
Oh yes, changing names of species and hybrids is not popular. If you are used to some names over long period of time it's hard to adapt to changes. For me it's not an issue. I like to be up to date always.
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
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Leftwood
May 5, 2020 4:14 PM CST
Some other examples in my mind at the moment are:
Lilium concolor var. coridion and strictum>>>Lilium concolor var. concolor
Lilium formosanum var. pricei>>>Lilium formosanum var. formosanum
Lilium canadense var. coccineum, flavum, editorium>>>Lilium canadense

I embrace the changes, too. But I often retain the old names as a simple way of differentiation in notes and photographs. And I use for myself, for instance, Lilium miquelianum (invalid), because using Lilium tsingtauense x L.medeoloides or L.distichum is just too long to write out all the time.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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Leftwood
May 5, 2020 8:20 PM CST
Don't get too critical with this site's data base. It's overseen by volunteers who donate their time and do the best they can. There are somethings that are quite good, and some things, well, not so much. I've been told by the general admin here that accuracy is not necessarily the most important aspect of the data base here. I also tried to get them to stop representing trademark names as cultivar names when they can't find a cultivar name, and was told it doesn't matter.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
Seed Starter Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography Forum moderator Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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Australis
May 5, 2020 8:30 PM CST

Moderator

Thanks Rick. We strive for accuracy, but there are limitations in the design and as you say, it's all volunteer work.

Leftwood said:I also tried to get them to stop representing trademark names as cultivar names when they can't find a cultivar name, and was told it doesn't matter.


I'll just add on this point that the design of the database makes it impossible to have a blank cultivar name. Even if it's not 100% correct, if we can't find the actual cultivar name, then the trade name is used as a placeholder (the trade name field should also get populated, though, which it usually does). At least this enables the entry to work until we can get the information. The only alternative under the current DB design would be to exclude the entry altogether.
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Joshua
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Zone 10b)
Köppen Climate Zone Cfb
Region: Australia Bookworm Cat Lover Lilies Orchids Irises
Seed Starter Annuals Container Gardener Garden Photography Forum moderator Avid Green Pages Reviewer
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Australis
May 5, 2020 9:30 PM CST

Moderator

Hi Lucius,

Here are a few more papers/resources regarding the taxonomy of the Lilium genus that may be of interest to you.

Gao, Y.-D. et al., 2012. A new species in the genus Nomocharis Franchet (Liliaceae): evidence that brings the genus Nomocharis into Lilium. Plant Systematics and Evolution, 298(1), pp.69–85. Available at: http://www.sekj.org/PDF/anb50-....

Gao, Y.-D. & Gao, X.-F., 2014. Taxonomic notes on Chinese Lilium L. (Liliaceae) with proposal of three nomenclatural revisions. Phytotaxa, 172(2), p.101. Available at: https://www.researchgate.net/p....

İkinci, N., 2011. Molecular phylogeny and divergence times estimates of Lilium section Liriotypus (Liliaceae) based on plastid and nuclear ribosomal ITS DNA sequence data. Turkish Journal of Botany, 35, pp.319–330. Available at: https://journals.tubitak.gov.t....

Pelkonen, V., Pirttilä, A., 2012. Taxonomy and Phylogeny of the Genus Lilium. Floriculture and Ornamental Biotechnology, [e-journal], Volume 6, Special Issue 2, pp.1-8. Available at http://globalsciencebooks.info...

Yang, L.-S. & Zhuang, G.-Q., 2015. Lilium saccatum: A new synonym of L. souliei (Liliaceae) for Flora of China. Phytotaxa, 212(1), p.102. Available at: http://dx.doi.org/10.11646/phy....

Skinner, M.W. 2002. Nomenclatural Changes in North American Lilium (Liliaceae). Novon, Vol. 12, No. 2 (Summer, 2002), pp. 253-261. Available at: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3...

Then there's also the very informative report I previously mentioned that is printed in the NALS Quarterly Bulletin 2019 (4): Evolution, Geographic Spread and Floral Diversification of the Genus Lilium.

I also recommended searching for resources on Google Scholar. Most of the time, if there is a publicly available link, they will include it. https://scholar.google.com
Plant Authorities: Catalogue of Life (Species) --- International Cultivar Registration Authorities (Cultivars) --- RHS Orchid Register --- RHS Lilium Register
My Notes: Orchid Genera HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Traits HTML PDF --- Lilium Species Crosses HTML PDF Excel --- Lilium Species Diagram
The current profile image is that of Iris 'Volcanic Glow'.
Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
Köppen Climate Zone Csa
Lilies Bulbs Seed Starter Xeriscape Container Gardener Sempervivums
Enjoys or suffers hot summers Garden Photography Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Hybridizer Region: Europe
Image
Lucius93
May 6, 2020 3:27 AM CST
Rick i am not critical at all. This is the best database in the world (talking about lilies, i am not following other plants/sections). The whole lily forum with database is full of useful informations. If i knew more about CoL i wouldn't even opened this topic (but on the other hand i am happy i did because i learned something). Almost whole of my knowledge about lilies came from this forum. I am very thankful for that so i decided to join this forum in order to help (if i can) and learn even more and also to share my experience, my pictures for database, my thought about some lilies etc which can be helpful to new lily growers.

Edit: @Australis i found that last NALS paper. One of the authors is Croat from University of Zagreb.
Great article! Now we know why lilium henryi is often associated with other trumpets.
[Last edited by Lucius93 - May 6, 2020 4:33 AM (+)]
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