Plant ID forum→Can you help me ID this vine before I weed whack?

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Name: Jess
Charlotte, NC (Zone 8a)
sabregirlxo
May 12, 2020 12:50 PM CST
This vine is growing along my fence. I took notice of it because I recently have purchased bare root grape vines to plant this year, so I'm in the "omg-excited-to-get-grapes" phase.... these leaves looks a little like grape leaves. However, I also fear I may be biased/hopeful and would like to know others opinions. (I mean really, what's the likelihood I have a wild grape vine? Hilarious! )

this area had a lot of wild blackberry brambles that we got rid of (very invasive and spread like wildfire... still fighting those off!), so it gets a lot of sun and I know things can grow here.

Any help is appreciated. Just want to be sure before I weed whack! lol

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Thanks!!
Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
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skopjecollection
May 12, 2020 12:56 PM CST
This looks like a grape vine...
Name: Lin Vosbury
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

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plantladylin
May 12, 2020 1:24 PM CST
I agree, Vitis species, possibly Muscadine (Vitis rotundifolia) which is common in the southeast.

https://www.carolinanature.com...
https://ui.uncc.edu/story/inva...
https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/m...

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Name: Jess
Charlotte, NC (Zone 8a)
sabregirlxo
May 12, 2020 2:17 PM CST
I was looking into the links you posted, plantladylin (thank you btw!), and I took some more pictures.

I saw that porcelain berry is a close lookalike weed, so I wanted to check. They say the pith of those vines are white, whereas the grapes have brown.

This is the portion that these new vines are growing from (I believe we mowed over these when getting rid of the blackberry brambles last fall). Looks like the pith of these old sections are brown (I cut a bit off). When I tried to cut the new growth, it was green... so neither brown or white. Thinking

The bark on this old growth also looks more like grape, I think?

I also took a picture of the underside of the leaf... hard to tell honestly if the hair is only on the veins or on the leaf itself.
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Name: Stefan
SE europe(balkans) (Zone 6b)
Cactus and Succulents Orchids Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Procrastinator Bulbs Foliage Fan
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skopjecollection
May 12, 2020 2:21 PM CST
The joints look different between the 2 i think..
Name: Lin Vosbury
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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plantladylin
May 12, 2020 2:35 PM CST
Still looks like wild grape to me.
~ I'm an old gal who still loves playing in the dirt!
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot!


Name: Jess
Charlotte, NC (Zone 8a)
sabregirlxo
May 12, 2020 4:08 PM CST
I took one of the thicker vines and cut it to see the pith. Looks white- so I think it may be a porcelain berry. Sad

I'm wondering if I should wait it out and see if I see berries or flowers later on?

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Name: Lin Vosbury
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)

Region: United States of America Deer Region: Florida Charter ATP Member Million Pollinator Garden Challenge I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Procrastinator Birds Butterflies Bee Lover Hummingbirder Container Gardener
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plantladylin
May 12, 2020 5:39 PM CST
When you mentioned Porcelain Berry, I must have been thinking of something else; your vine sure does look a lot like the invasive Porcelain Berry (Ampelopsis brevipedunculata)

More photos and info on these NC State Univ. pages:
https://projects.ncsu.edu/goin...
https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/pl...
~ I'm an old gal who still loves playing in the dirt!
~ Playing in the dirt is my therapy ... and I'm in therapy a lot!


Name: Jess
Charlotte, NC (Zone 8a)
sabregirlxo
May 12, 2020 6:00 PM CST
I think I may mark this as solved... Most likely porcelain berry (how very disappointing).

But what gets me is that the bark peels off in strips- classic of a grape vine. And it does NOT seem to have lenticels, also normal of a grape vine. But despite those two grape-like attributes, the pith is white I think. Shrug! Plants are hard. Lmao

Thanks for the help Stefan, Lin!
Name: John
Scott County, KY (Zone 5b)
You can't have too many viburnums..
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ViburnumValley
May 12, 2020 6:17 PM CST
Hi sabregirlxo:

I feel like shouting: THOSE ARE GRAPE VINES.

Now, I feel better.

I would like to offer some advice to new gardeners who are learning ID characteristics, and trying to sort out what can be confusing terminology and irritating similarities. Do not go to an obscure and often difficult to determine feature (pith color) for the definitive ID, unless/until you have eliminated all of the regular/normal ID features. As you have observed, the pith color on an older (more than one year) stem can be different in color than the pith of new growth.

Some of these usual ID characteristics include: Orientation of leaves/buds/stems along the main trunk or branches; leaf morphology; flowering characteristics; fruiting characteristics; with vines, the characteristics of how they climb or attach themselves; etc.

It would be more helpful to have more pictures of (more than one) leaves, post them here, and request review. Photograph how the leaves are attached along the stems, including closeups of the petioles, the bud scars, the leaf scars, the tendrils (!), and any varying bark characteristics along those stems.

Vitis sp. are markedly different from Ampelopsis sp., and not just by pith color. I think you are right to keep that vine for the rest of the season, and observe all the characteristics it displays in that time. I think it will also be worthwhile to try to find known examples of Ampelopsis sp. and Vitis sp., so you can compare/contrast them in real time.

One of the great things about having a horticultural background AND working in a municipal parks department, is/was the opportunity to see all these plants all the time. Upon reading a post like this, and believing to myself "well, those two species are nothing alike", I could go out and find samples of both. I could review to myself WHY I believe they are nothing alike, and try to look at them with fresh eyes to see where those actual differences are. Then, taking pictures of the definitive characteristics, I could post them to explain those things.

I would sincerely ask you to reconsider your position. Take a very close look at the vein pattern in the leaves on your plant, and then the vein pattern on the leaves in the Ampelopsis links supplied by plantladylin. I believe they are markedly different, but I'm lacking the botanical terminology memory to say what each pattern is called.

With distancing going on, I'm not out on the ground with all those plants in the parks. I have a wealth of volunteer Vitis at Viburnum Valley, but thankfully have zero of the pernicious pest Ampelopsis brevipedunculata.

So, we rest and await your patience with us. Please provide some more evidence, and help us assure you that it is NOT unlikely at all for you to have a volunteer grape vine. It likely originated exactly like the wild blackberries - from free contributions from bird depositions.

I hope your bare root grapes get off to a good start. Comparison of those plants to your volunteer may also "bear fruit". In fact, that made me think of another separating ID feature - the root system characteristics.
John
Name: Jess
Charlotte, NC (Zone 8a)
sabregirlxo
May 12, 2020 8:22 PM CST
ViburnumValley said:Hi sabregirlxo:

I feel like shouting: THOSE ARE GRAPE VINES.

(...)

I hope your bare root grapes get off to a good start. Comparison of those plants to your volunteer may also "bear fruit". In fact, that made me think of another separating ID feature - the root system characteristics.


Hi! Thank you so much for replying!! I will go ahead and take more pictures tomorrow when there is light!

I appreciate the plethora of information in your post. I definitely am new to all of this, though I do plan to keep the vine growing until I see the fruit for 100% verification anyway. I'll just make sure to keep it from getting out of control. (I have experience now with those darn blackberry brambles! Hilarious! )

I will upload some more pictures of everything you mentioned tomorrow and await your input! Smiling
Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
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bxncbx
May 12, 2020 9:11 PM CST
I'm just going to add my 2 cents for what it's worth.

I have been battling porcelain berry for years now. It looks VERY similar to a grape vine. It is HIGHLY invasive. I made the mistake of thinking it was an old grapevine from years ago. Big mistake! D'Oh!

I suggest instead of waiting for it to bear fruit you watch it's growth. If it seems to grow about a foot a week after a good rain, it's not a grapevine. Pull it out immediately! By the time it bears fruit it will have taken over your yard. Any piece of root left in the ground will grow a new plant. And if those berries fall (birds love to eat them) you'll find LOTS of seedlings coming up for years. Grumbling

If it were me, I'd pull it now since I didn't plant it. Much like Japanese knotweed (which I also battle) this is not something you want to get established.
Name: John
Scott County, KY (Zone 5b)
You can't have too many viburnums..
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ViburnumValley
May 12, 2020 9:29 PM CST
I'm not a fan of keeping any plant that you don't want/need in your garden, especially volunteers. I am, however, a vociferous advocate for KNOWING what you have. Personal experience is great, overcoming adversity is greater. Making a willy-nilly decision that is not grounded in fact, well, there is really no good name for that.

Vitis sp. grows incredibly vigorously, especially if it has any kind of roots under it . I'd put mine up against anyone's invasive species, and that growth rate is NOT a discriminating feature in any sense - especially in NC growing conditions.

Observation of all the common features of any plant will yield its identity. I'm sorry anyone had to fight off and finally destroy an errant Ampelopsis sp. - but one would never mistake Porcelainberry flowers and/or fruit for a Grape. Never. No how.

I will be up in Louisville tomorrow. I will brave the rain, and I will attempt to collect sample material from parks where I know Porcelainberry rampantly runs free. Evidence is always better than anecdote, and showing the species side by side should help advance knowledge in this situation.

John
Name: Jess
Charlotte, NC (Zone 8a)
sabregirlxo
May 13, 2020 10:59 AM CST
ViburnumValley said:I'm not a fan of keeping any plant that you don't want/need in your garden, especially volunteers. I am, however, a vociferous advocate for KNOWING what you have. Personal experience is great, overcoming adversity is greater. Making a willy-nilly decision that is not grounded in fact, well, there is really no good name for that.

Vitis sp. grows incredibly vigorously, especially if it has any kind of roots under it . I'd put mine up against anyone's invasive species, and that growth rate is NOT a discriminating feature in any sense - especially in NC growing conditions.

Observation of all the common features of any plant will yield its identity. I'm sorry anyone had to fight off and finally destroy an errant Ampelopsis sp. - but one would never mistake Porcelainberry flowers and/or fruit for a Grape. Never. No how.

I will be up in Louisville tomorrow. I will brave the rain, and I will attempt to collect sample material from parks where I know Porcelainberry rampantly runs free. Evidence is always better than anecdote, and showing the species side by side should help advance knowledge in this situation.




Hi there, John!

I took a lot more pictures today, so many that I don't know if I should upload them here or if I even can. So I put them in a folder in google drive, though since I'm new, it won't let me post links. I will put a few pictures here, and perhaps private message you the link to the folder of all the pictures I took.

Edit: Looks like I can't mail a link as well.

I don't think it's a fox grape, and I'm having doubts about porcelain berry now, as well. It kind of looks like Possum Grapes based on some images I've seen of new growth vines, and how the shoots are angled and reddish by the joints.

(no idea if my terminology is correct...)


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[Last edited by sabregirlxo - May 13, 2020 11:03 AM (+)]
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