Roses forum→Another spacing question

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Tuscany, Italy
bart2018
May 18, 2020 4:00 AM CST
Basically, what do "they" mean when they say that the planting distance is one meter? The rose I'm mulling over is Reine des Violettes. This rose grows quite large in my climate, but is very lax, and very much adapted to be grown up a tripod or pillar,so it doesn't take up a lot of space. But it does require good soil. So, when a nursery says that the planting distance for RdV is one meter (about 3 feet) does that mean that there should be a meter of space between it and any surrounding roses?
Name: Mike
Long Beach, Ca.
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Calsurf73
May 18, 2020 6:58 AM CST
Basically, yes.
I've planted roses closer together than that and they've done just fine. Knowing how tall and wide a given rose will eventually get is very helpful in determining your spacing.
From what I've seen of RdV, it does, like you said, tend to be more tall than wide, so you could always plant a shorter rose closer to it's base to hide any "legginess".
3 feet apart is a good general guideline to promote good air circulation between roses to prevent diseases which can result when they're too close to one another.
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
hampartsum
May 18, 2020 7:14 AM CST
By what you've said from other places here in RF, your place is more of a natural looking or wilder place garden. I have the same landscaping concerns on my property too. What you might want to re-think is how would you like it to look let say in 5 years time. It may be a single specimen. The observers distance is critical in taking into consideration. What it looks like depends on how far you are standing/ passing-by views. The further away you look it from, the details are blurred and the general architecture of the bush emerges. Imo I let the bush reach to that category before deciding how to shape it or prune it severely. Everyone has in his internal image formation a picture of what it wants the bush to grow into. The problem of most of us is that we don't know aforehand what it could grow into and try to force-fit into a pre-conceived image that doesn't fit. That is very easy to experience with OGR's since they are VERY different from the conventional rose- bush (the standard internal image): the hybrid Tea. OGR's are particularly suited to free forming bushes and wilder looking sites... Smiling
Arturo
Name: Seth n Sam .....
W.V. (Zone 6a)
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Weluvroses
May 18, 2020 11:59 AM CST
bart2018 said:Basically, what do "they" mean when they say that the planting distance is one meter? The rose I'm mulling over is Reine des Violettes. This rose grows quite large in my climate, but is very lax, and very much adapted to be grown up a tripod or pillar,so it doesn't take up a lot of space. But it does require good soil. So, when a nursery says that the planting distance for RdV is one meter (about 3 feet) does that mean that there should be a meter of space between it and any surrounding roses?


I have RDV being shipped today from Burlington. I was told it gets very big. And is pretty vigorous as well.
Name: Lee-Roy
Bilzen, Belgium (Zone 8a)
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Arico
May 18, 2020 2:03 PM CST
I've always interpreted spacing distance measured heart to heart (middle to middle). This way they'll just meet in the middle aka at their respective full grown edges to cover the ground and prevent weeds from growing.

The way suggested above does not really take into account the size the plant ALREADY IS.
For instance, if a Salvia grows to about 2 feet diameter fully grown, the spacing between two of these -measured from their middle - should be two feet so they'll just touch when they're adults.
But if your salvias are already 1.5 feet and you still space them two feet apart, there will eventually be a sizeable gap (one foot) between the two when they're fully grown, and generally that's not what we want.
Name: seil
St Clair Shores, MI (Zone 6a)
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seilMI
May 18, 2020 5:38 PM CST
I've always heard three feet on center, not three feet apart from edge to edge. If it were that I'd have at least half the roses I have now for lack of space.

It will depend on what look you want. Do you want to see each bush as an individual specimen or is it OK for them to intermingle with each other? I like mine to grow together so the roses blend and form an attractive mass and mix of colors. Some people hate that look, lol. You do what appeals to you.

You do not say where you live or what zone you're in. Climate will make a definite difference on how your RdV grows and performs. In my cold climate RdV gets very large by the end of the season and I keep her on a trellis but I do have to prune her back quite a bit each spring from winter kill. So that way she always stays within bounds for me.
SW Ohio River Valley (Zone 6b)
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vaporvac
May 18, 2020 7:12 PM CST
Like Seil, I had always read 3 ft or whatever on Center. Thanks for the info on our DV. I just planted mine couple of days ago and it's already sending out little shoots. If only it would stop raining. I wonder how quickly it will grow in its first year?

fisherwoman
May 18, 2020 8:17 PM CST
Only thinking of sunlight, I forgot about air circulation and probably shouldn't have planted dill so close amid the roses. The back of the seed package said lady bugs are attracted to dill. The ladies can have a culinary delight of dill herbed aphids.
Also planted my Moranga pumpkins from Rare Seeds, it will be a miracle if they make it in my care.
Thumb of 2020-05-19/fisherwoman/71d4af

Tuscany, Italy
bart2018
May 19, 2020 3:18 AM CST
Thank you one and all-I truly appreciate your thoughtful comments.Seil, I'm in Italy, in the foot-hills of the Appennines, Tuscany. In theory the zone is estimated to be around 8, for what that's worth. Summers here are awful-very long, very hot, and very dry,and what's worse, my garden-a 20 minute drive from my home, without running water-faces south-west.
I've grown RdV before, and it gets to be quite big, but by no means is it a Hulk. It's very, very lax, and needs support, IME. Ideal on a tripod. I don't have much disease pressure at all.
I like to have the plants intermingle as much as possible,and this desire has caused me to plant roses too close to each other. What has me confused here is that I'd like to follow Arico's rule,but don't understand how to evaluate the "width" of a plant like RdV,since in my climate it just doesn't seem to want to be a self-supporting shrub-it wants to be a small climber. So I'd like to-if possible-plant something at it's feet, as Calsurf suggests, not just to hide legginess; what I'm envisioning is RdV grown together with some really dark purple. The dark purples that I have (also in pots, like RdV, and waiting to be planted out next autumn) are: Ebb Tide, Forever Royal, Purple Lodge, and Twilight Zone,so ideally I'd like to use one of these. Any further thoughts or comments, please?
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
hampartsum
May 19, 2020 4:16 AM CST
@bart2018
don't understand how to evaluate the "width" of a plant like RdV,since in my climate it just doesn't seem to want to be a self-supporting shrub-it wants to be a small climber.

Well, my impression is that your RdV is a much larger plant than that appears as standard in HMF. It is possibly arching ( like my own RdV) which means that it will throw out long canes that will bend down with its own weight if left untied and let to grow free of any support. Of course instead you may want to provide a support, i.e a pillar or a tripod. I insist in understanding the architecture of your plant.: what it would look like if left on its own. With your long warm summers, that get increasingly dry ( like here) your bush will grow almost unendingly just restricted by the available watering.

Before considering adding other roses think twice how you are going to visualize the full group of roses. Spacing out also depends of water availability. If you place your bushes too close, they will compete for scarce water. So preferably add another foot to the diameter of the fully grown bush. Remember that in dry climates like yours ( or mine) bushes will grow roots even beyond the diameter of the fully grown bush in search for water. If you plant too close then all will suffer its lack. Mulching the space in between will also reduce evaporation and competition by weeds in between bushes.

I would choose Ebb Tide definitively if it were available here. But, I would also look out for an apricot or light orange that would complement the purples and thus highlight them.

Arturo
Tuscany, Italy
bart2018
May 19, 2020 4:20 AM CST
I've put up this link to a picture of RdV in Sweden-this gives an idea of what the growth habit is like: https://www.helpmefind.com/ros... Definitely a climber! How close to the base of such a plant can I put another rose?
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche, Rio Negro, Argentin (Zone 8a)
Roses Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all!
hampartsum
May 19, 2020 9:03 AM CST
If you look carefully in that picture there's a low bush like plant ( looks like a peony) growing in diagonal to the climbing RdV. By measuring the size of the steps and number of bricks, the center of that low rose is placed about 1.5 mt away from the center of RdV. I'm asuming that the bricks are 30cmx10cm. ( that would be their size here...) and the tiles on the steps are 15cm. Now, this for Sweden, a much colder and milder climate than yours, plus rainy summers. I would allow myself more room. Meanwhile as your RdV reaches full size, you can grow annuals or short lived perennials ( like in the picture): snapdragons and foxglove to fill in space. These are much more shallow rooted. They will still require watering...
Arturo




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