Roses forum: Rogue Valley Roses updates Gallons List

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Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Sep 25, 2012 6:49 PM CST
I've been checking RVR's gallon list almost every week for weeks on end to see if I could catch it soon after they had potted up the old extras and it changed. I thought that if I did I might be able to get a few roses on my wish list in gallons instead of bands. I noticed today that the list has been updated. Sadly, though, some of the items that were added to the list are already out of stock: Duet and Mme Jules Graveraux were already out of stock when I ordered.

I was able to snag Champagne Cocktail, a rather unusual multicolored rose that's a little hard to describe. I got Orfeo, a red hybrid tea climber with lovely reflexed petals and a retro look. David Austin's love of the fragrant yellow shrub rose Chinatown has kept me trying to grow one of my own, so I got one of those, too. I got Violinista Costa whose rose/coral petals have very thin white edging. Mme Gregoire Staechelin was on the list. It died of cold in NJ, not so sure I can keep it alive here. Finally, there is Siren's Keep, a deep purple rose from Paul Barden that is reputed to be generous in flower and very fragrant.

I hope if you go there you find something you like.
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
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CindiKS
Sep 26, 2012 4:13 PM CST
Wonder if I could just call them and say: send me one of everything Steve ordered!
Hurray!
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Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Sep 26, 2012 5:04 PM CST
Thanks for the compliment, Cindy.

I fear I might have gotten the last of one or two cultivars, but I can't remember which ones they were.
Name: Trish
Jacksonville, TX (Zone 8a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Roses Herbs Vegetable Grower
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Trish
Sep 27, 2012 6:49 AM CST

Garden.org Admin

Obviously I should have spent my online time yesterday shopping for roses instead of boots Rolling my eyes.
NGA COO, Wife, Mom, and caretaker of 90 acres and all that dwell there.
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Sep 27, 2012 9:23 AM CST
In some parts of Texas a good pair of boots is more important than all the roses you could plant there.
Name: Trish
Jacksonville, TX (Zone 8a)
I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar Charter ATP Member Region: Texas Roses Herbs Vegetable Grower
Composter Canning and food preservation Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Organic Gardener Forum moderator Hummingbirder
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Trish
Sep 27, 2012 4:25 PM CST

Garden.org Admin

I agree

There are still a few that I would like that aren't sold out.
Do you think Smokey is worth getting? Zuzu, I saw your warning in the database and it made me pause.
https://www.roguevalleyroses.com/rose/smoky
NGA COO, Wife, Mom, and caretaker of 90 acres and all that dwell there.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Sep 27, 2012 4:46 PM CST

Moderator

Smoky is an incredible rose, Trish, but most nurseries are not selling the real Smoky. I bought three or four from Vintage Gardens and Moore's that produced solid brick-red or burnt-orange blooms and looked nothing like the Smoky I bought when the rose first came out in the late 1960s. I lost it in a divorce a few years later, but I never forgot how unique it was. The real Smoky is a russet rose with silvery-burgundy reverse and a bright orange center. Burlington is the only place I know of that definitely carries the real thing.

From the pictures, it looks possible that Rogue Valley is carrying the real Smoky. I can see the mauve tones in the outer petals, so it looks promising. It's very difficult to photograph the rose and capture all three of the distinct colors. so the Rogue Valley photos may have missed the orange center.
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
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Skiekitty
Sep 28, 2012 8:22 AM CST
Trish - Smokey's been on my wishlist since I saw Zuzu talking about it back on DG. I was gonna order that & Abracadabra when I learned about RVR, but I've been hesitant for her exact words. All pay heed to the Mahsta of da Rosez!
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Oct 1, 2012 3:32 PM CST
Long story short, I say "Go for it."

Long story:
Making things more complicated is that roses whose color depends on the precise mix of two or more pigments - in this case something magenta or reddish and something yellow or orangish - can be extremely variable. I've not grown Smoky (that is, it has never bloomed in my garden, although I seem to recall having purchased one a few years ago from RVR) so I don't know how variable it is when grown in one spot. As I look at photos of it at HMF I notice that when it produces dark maroon flowers I really like it; when it produces the grayish ones that are a mix of mauve and yellow, I find it novel but not pretty. Finally, when it turns out a flat magenta I find it uninteresting and a little ugly.

I observe - from spending tens of hours pouring over photos of tea roses at HMF for an ongoing project - that it is very common for tea roses and their close descendants to have very wide color variation. Especially variable is the yellow color process that tends to tint the flowers yellow from the bases up as well as the petals nearest the center of the bloom. Almost as variable is a red color process that tends to tint the oldest/outermost petals red or magenta. Again, these are processes one notices in many old tea roses that have wide variations in color - processes that have been inherited by some hybrid tea and floribunda roses. It looks to me like Smoky depends on both of these processes to express all its glory. If the yellow process fails*, you get none of that wonderful orange at the center of the rose. And if the special red process fails, the outer petals are no darker red than the inner ones. So it is possible to buy the right rose and get an effect far from what you hoped for. You can end up with a dull magenta rose. But it seems to me that most of the time there is some measure of success. It also seems to me that in warm and sunny climates success is more likely.

Having just worked on an entry for Ophelia today I realize that it is an example of a hybrid tea rose that has both these processes. I realize, too, that Ophelia has a huge number of sports. I've not tracked them all down and accounted for all the variations; but it seems clear that these color processes can be modified by subtle genetic or epigenetic changes. Same story holds for Peace. And for the same reason, I think. So I guess it is possible to get a clone of a clone of Smoky and find that the yellow process is weaker or non-existant just as one could buy a clone of Ophelia and end up with Madame Butterfly or a clone of Peace and end up with Chicago Peace. The only sure way to solve the problem is to drive to Zuzu's house and get a cutting from her fully functional Smoky and root it. Whistling

---

* by "fails" I mean "fails to be expressed by the rose in a material and timely manner" or "doesn't happen."
Name: Toni
Denver Metro (Zone 5a)
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
Charter ATP Member Irises Salvias Xeriscape Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Master Level Garden Procrastinator The WITWIT Badge Region: Colorado Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover
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Skiekitty
Oct 1, 2012 3:54 PM CST
Steve812 said:The only sure way to solve the problem is to drive to Zuzu's house and get a cutting from her fully functional Smoky and root it. Whistling


Why stop at a cutting? Got shovel, ready to travel! Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing jk jk jk!!
Roses are one of my passions! Just opened, my Etsy shop (to fund my rose hobby)! http://www.etsy.com/shop/TweetsnTreats
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
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porkpal
Oct 1, 2012 5:46 PM CST
Steve, I really enjoy your scholarly approach to rose growing. The research is fascinating - especially as I have no time or patience for it myself. Keep up the good work!

Are these color expressions variable for a single plant, possibly under different growing conditions, or from bloom to bloom at any given moment? Or does an individual rose continue to perform true to it's particular color patterns? Unless the latter is the case it might do us no good to raid Zuzu's garden.
Porkpal
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Region: Southwest Gardening Roses
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Steve812
Oct 1, 2012 6:33 PM CST
I think there are several things going on. What I was fascinated by in my research was how six photos of a tea rose could look so completely different that you would swear they were of different roses. It was true of many tea roses. And this, I think, is why.

One can always go back to Mutablilis and view a bud opening yellow, turning an orangish color, then pinkish, then reddish. There are two color processes working at once there: a fading yellow and a developing red. And all of the colors in between can be explained by just where each process is at the time. Of course everything that might affect the metabolism of the rose could affect the speed of these processes, perhaps a little differently: light, temperature, moisture, environmental stresses, and so on. My guess is that Mutabilis was used quite a bit in the breeding of tea roses and that many tea roses inherited and express both color processes. But evidently other heritable traits moderate to what extent the processes are expressed, so that the pigments produced by the processes are the same but perhaps how the pigments are distributed in the petals is different. And the amount of pigment produced under similar conditions varies from cultivar to cultivar.

Consider Madame Lombard. In this photo a newer blossom is apricot and an older one is a darker pink. One can find photos of Madame Lombard that depict a pale rose, almost white or a dark rosy shade with orange-tinged central petals and darker outer petals.. This can be explained by the progress of those same two color processes found in Mutabilis. What we see in Madame Lombard is happening also in Smoky. But Smoky starts with a third color process, evidently, one that very reliably and uniformly produces rose or magenta pigment as a baseline color throughout the petal rather than the white baseline in the case of Mme Lombard.

So all of this color variation in (some number of) tea roses can be explained in terms of two known petal coloring processes traced back to Mutabilis. Those two processes work with a third "uniform pink" process in Smoky. All kinds of environmental factors could, hypothetically, affect the speed of each process. Every rose on a given plant that experiences precisely the same amount of light and that is formed on the same day is likely to resemble every other rose. But as environmental factors change, and the processes run differently, the color of the rose will be different. Maybe imperceptibly, maybe much. Most people claim that colors are richer in their fall roses. Colors that derive from the reddening color process of Mutabilis and other china roses might develop more slowly in cooler weather. So cooler weather might favor that coveted orange coloration on Smoky's central petals.

Because there exist a number of hybrid tea roses such as Ophelia and Peace that sport, causing quasi-permanent quantitative changes in the magnitude of expression of these color processes, it must be true that a sport of Smoky could decrease (or increase) the expression of yellow pigment leading to less (or more) orange and the impression that it's not the real Smoky. But another possibility is that environmental factors don't favor the creation of yellow pigment because that process can be really tweaky in a lot of roses that have it. Perhaps some change in the plant's nutrition, water rations, light, or thermal environment would bring that yellow pigment back.

At this point I need more information. Experiments are indicated. Mme Lombard is now on the ARE to-buy list.

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