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May 19, 2020 4:51 PM CST
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
Because it's moving into its spring bloom now, I wanted to share 'Fourth of July'.

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Last edited by jerijen May 19, 2020 4:52 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for porkpal
May 19, 2020 5:20 PM CST
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX (Zone 9a)
Cat Lover Charter ATP Member Keeper of Poultry I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Dog Lover Keeps Horses
Roses Plant Identifier Farmer Raises cows Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Ideas: Level 2
Glorious!
Porkpal
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May 19, 2020 5:49 PM CST
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Level 1
Beautiful, Jeri ... I tip my hat to you.
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Avatar for Calsurf73
May 19, 2020 6:19 PM CST
Name: Mike
Long Beach, Ca.
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Roses Hummingbirder Farmer Daylilies
Birds Cat Lover Region: California Bulbs Butterflies Garden Ideas: Level 1
I agree
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May 19, 2020 7:35 PM CST
Name: seil
St Clair Shores, MI (Zone 6a)
Garden Photography Region: Michigan Roses
Thanks, Jeri, it's beautiful!
Avatar for hampartsum
May 20, 2020 9:39 AM CST
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche,Rio Negro, Argentina (Zone 8a)
Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Roses
I'm trying to find a good site for FoJ, Jerri, It has bloomed non stop these past two seasons. It is growing still in its grow bag. Does it need full sun? Some places say that it is shade tolerant. Is that so? Does it climb big or stays like a middle sized shrub?: i.e to be pillared of about 9 ftl tall. I'm trying to understand its architecture. I'm VERY fond of it. I imagine it as a specimen bush.

TYiA.
Arturo
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May 20, 2020 9:55 AM CST
Name: Seth n Sam .....
W.V. (Zone 6a)
My 4th of July 3gal I bought last year was a complete and total failure. And still is this year. 2 loan blooms last year. Zero new growth this year. And it only has 8 leaves total. It's getting the shovel in the next few weeks if it doesnt pick up. But I can say I bought it at the same time as my dud America(Cl) and from the same place. And I already gave America the shovel. And replaced it with another. That is already 3 times the size than its previous relative. I'm thinking it has to do with the nursery I bought them from. All other 118 roses bought from every where are booming. Those two bought from the same nursery. And the only two bought from that nursery. Apparently are duds.
Avatar for Calsurf73
May 20, 2020 10:15 AM CST
Name: Mike
Long Beach, Ca.
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Roses Hummingbirder Farmer Daylilies
Birds Cat Lover Region: California Bulbs Butterflies Garden Ideas: Level 1
I've gotten dud roses before, too. Sometimes it just happens...why I don't know. Could be the source that grew them or just bad plants to begin with.
Avatar for hampartsum
May 20, 2020 10:30 AM CST
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche,Rio Negro, Argentina (Zone 8a)
Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Roses
Calsurf73 said:I've gotten dud roses before, too. Sometimes it just happens...why I don't know. Could be the source that grew them or just bad plants to begin with.

I agree I wish someone could provide light to the why's of a plant ending up becoming a dud. I've been scratching my head about this for quite some time already...
Normally when a nutrient is missing the plant recovers as soon as the missing nutrient is provided ( this said including water). With perennials there's a time lag involved. Somehow the energy stored up somewhere is depleted and the new growth doesn't seem to be able to replenish that in spite of having at present what it needs to grow and bloom. Some people explain this way why they disbud roses when just starting their care, on young newly arrived plants. I suspect that bare-roots or bands have their inherent metabolism disrupted by the transplant procedures needed for shipment. Some individuals resent this beyond recovery. I've received bare rose bushes from my trustworthy nursery and within a lot of 70 bushes, 2 never put out leaves, in spite of TLC provided!. My nursery eagerly replaced them and when asked she said: that happens sometimes, I'll replace them!
So its not the $ loss, or the time wasted, or ruined expectations. What is it that we as growers/nurseries could be doing wrong?. This issue around dud specimens has haunted me for a long time by now... Sighing!
This is as far as I've managed to figure it out! Smiling
Arturo
Avatar for Calsurf73
May 20, 2020 11:03 AM CST
Name: Mike
Long Beach, Ca.
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member Roses Hummingbirder Farmer Daylilies
Birds Cat Lover Region: California Bulbs Butterflies Garden Ideas: Level 1
I think it's the same as why in a given family of say 4 kids, three may turn out perfectly fine and one may go completely bonkers even though they were all given the same tlc. lol Unfortunately, in that instance you can't return them for credit or replacement !

Here's another possible reason: If you've ever gone to a rose growing "farm" and seen how they literally RIP the plants out of the ground with a machine and then process them for shipping you'd be amazed they'd even survive the ordeal much less grow at all. Given the barbaric treatment they receive it makes sense that there's going to be a few that just weren't capable of recovering. "Survival of the fittest' and all that......….
Avatar for hampartsum
May 20, 2020 11:49 AM CST
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche,Rio Negro, Argentina (Zone 8a)
Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Roses
My specialty rose nursery is run by a 88 year old lady that doesn't own that type of machinery. She dotes on her roses even more than I do. Yet even in this case, sometimes her roses do not survive their shipping. My question is beyond the obvious. Perhaps someone has more detailed observations that could help solve this riddle... Smiling
I would also apply it to the bonkers child too... Hilarious! In that case perhaps asking the question to a psychotherapist might help. It requires extreme parental honesty to find that answer though... before allowing oneself a Shrug!
To my knowledge, we don't seem to have any psycho/ plant shrink to visit... Rolling on the floor laughing
Arturo
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May 20, 2020 1:45 PM CST
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
I think CalSurf has the right of it. Those roses aren't treated with care. I've been inside the (empty at the time) cold-storage room at the OLD Weeks facility.

Moreover, they all spend months sitting in cold-storage, until they're sold. And I suspect that folks in cold climates get plants held even longer.

I planted this rose in 1994, the year it was released. I"d been waiting for it, for a couple of years, as John Walden (late of J&P) had told me about it. HE said that the AARS trials, then, showed it doing exceptionally well everywhere it was trialed. He also said that, someone in that process had grown it as an immense free-standing shrub. That had to have been spectacular -- but OH! The THORNS!

We have it growing against a 12-ft.-high retaining wall. To its East is a massive "Secret Garden Musk Climber, and a gazebo. To its West is the gateway, which throws some shade. It does well there, and always has.

A few years back, some of its canes were very worn and gray. I removed them at pruning time and was rewarded with 3 new ones. The next year, I did the same. Not this year, but next year, I'll do the same, The plant looks great.

It reaches just above the wall ... say 12-ft., 4-5 inches. It spreads a bit fan-wise, but the canes are too rigid to arch, so it's easily contained. And we no longer tie it to the wall. It's self-supporting.

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Avatar for hampartsum
May 20, 2020 1:56 PM CST
Name: Arturo Tarak
Bariloche,Rio Negro, Argentina (Zone 8a)
Dahlias Irises Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Roses
Wow Jerri! Thank You! Thank You! . With that photo in sight even if I were to grow it half its size, I would be grateful! I really think that Fourth of July is an outstanding rose. Your success ought to prompt those having doubts about it...
yes I know location, location, location, Smiling
but even so, with modest aspirations it should become a stunner down here too.
Arturo
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May 20, 2020 8:13 PM CST
Name: seil
St Clair Shores, MI (Zone 6a)
Garden Photography Region: Michigan Roses
Besides the rough treatment they get I think that sometime they are just poorly grafted and those weak grafts never amount to a plant of any vigor or size. Unfortunately, not all roses are created equal.

You are right, Jeri. Roses sold up here are MONTHS longer in cold storage before we get them in the stores. We also only get the left overs. When every one here starts talking about all the roses and varieties they're finding in the big box stores out west and down south in January, I know that what I'll see in April, at the earliest, and usually May will be much drier and will be all the oldest of the usual old varieties that basically nobody else wanted. Slim pickins for sure!
Image
May 21, 2020 11:08 AM CST
Coastal Southern California (Zone 13a)
Seil, that's really sad.

I wonder ... when the big rose-growing industry was centered in Ohio, that might have been better for mid-westerners. As things stand, you guys really do get the short end of the stick.

Oh, and ... as you said ... ". . . not all roses are created equal."

Some tolerate that long cold storage better than others do.
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