Daylilies forum: A few questions....

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Name: virginiarose
Virginia
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virginiarose
Nov 8, 2012 8:38 AM CST
What is FFO????... I have racked my brains.


What is the best daylily, dormant or evergreen? I read this, does anyone agree? Makes sense to me.
'What I have noticed for most daylilies that are NOT dormant, after a stellar bloom year, they tend to have a mediocre bloom season to recover. Dormants, on the other hand, seem to build an even bigger crown over the winter, and perform about the same for me each season.'


If a daylily is susceptible to rust, should I buy it here in this humid area??
(southeastern virginia)....or avoid like the plague!
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Dot or Dorothy Parker
Fort Worth TX (Zone 8a)
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I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Texas Daylilies Irises Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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Ladylovingdove
Nov 8, 2012 8:46 AM CST
FFO equals first flower open.

The other questions are too hard for me to answer. Dormants "usually" do better where there is lots of cold. Evergreens "usually" do better where there is not so much winter. Note the word usually.I usually get mild winters here in northern central Texas. Many dormants usually just fade away for me after a few years. I tend to buy evergreens or semievergreens, they do best for me.

Dot
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
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virginiarose
Nov 8, 2012 9:18 AM CST
Do you think the evergreens need a period to recharge? I was worried that they might only bloom every other year. I don't like that idea.

I am very surprised that dormants just fade away like that, wonder why they do that? Is it the lack of a good cold spell? The evergreens are looking better every minute!
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Mona
Guntown, Ms (Zone 7b)
I love nature & everything outdoors
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monalisa18
Nov 8, 2012 2:07 PM CST
FFO is a frequently asked question. I had to ask several years ago, too. I tried everything I could think of and couldn't come up with it. First flower open, hmmmm, I always said first bloom until I heard what is used online. It's not just on this site because I was on Gardenweb when I asked. I think it's a daylily term. -Ok, I went to AHS and it's on their list of terms. Here's a very useful site:

http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/dictionary.html

I have never paid attention to which plants were EV, SEV or dormant. I've always had some that bloom every year and some that didn't. I also have some that bloomed the first year and didn't bloom again until I repotted them last year. I'm anxious to see if they will bloom next year. My zone is 7a and we have a very wide variety of weather. from 10 below up to 108 one year. Usually it's a happy medium of about 20 to 102, with most cold days being about 40 and most hot days being about 95. But, then along comes the climate change of the past two years and we've had extremes both ways. I think that the different "season" or foliage type really comes into play when you are in zones 8 and above and zones 5 and blow. I'm like Dot, this is just "me" talking so take it with a grain of salt.

Blessings, Mona
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 8, 2012 2:33 PM CST
Thanks Mona, great idea looking on AHS. Wow list of terms will come in handy!
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Cynthia (Cindy)
Melvindale, Mi (Zone 5b)
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Hemlady
Nov 8, 2012 2:36 PM CST
I try all types of daylilies but don't buy as many evergreens. Some do well here and some don't. It's all trial and error. Some bloom nice the first season and seem to get smaller the next year.
Lighthouse Gardens
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Nov 8, 2012 3:44 PM CST
Well, I don't think I have ever had a daylily NOT bloom the following year or only bloom so-so; I haven't had daylilies too long though. From a hybridizers stand point, if a daylily only bloomed every other year it would take about 7-8 years (or more depending on zone) for evaluations to take place and well most wouldn't make the cut if this was a trait. Same would go for if they bloomed mediocre because it would take at least 3-4 of the good blooming years (averaged out with the bad years) to get an average bud count. A hybridizer wouldn't get much hybridizing done on these plants if they did either.
I know some say that loading the plant with pods stresses the plant and it may not bloom the following year, but that may be more North. Shoot, James loads all his daylilies full of pods every year and they bloom just fine the following year.

It may have to do with how much watering and feeding they get if they need to recharge a year especially if your natural soil doesn't have much in a way of feeding the plants.



On the rust guestion, it really depends. I have had daylilies that are supposed to be HIGHLY susceptible to rust and they never got it at all (this was before I sprayed or knew to spray for rust).
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Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 8, 2012 4:10 PM CST
Cindy, I guess there will be a lot of trial and error here!

Michele,
Oh, thank you! I have been good so far but I must have this one daylily that is susceptible. I will put it in a good place where it has air circulation. If it were to get some rust what would I use? Well, with you living in Florida I would assume you have as many evergreens as anyone. So if a person said they bloom good one year and then have a mediocre year, might not be giving all the facts, right? A lot of things factor into the wellness of a plant. Proper nutrition, water, sunlight, I know there are some people who just want to blame the plant.

Who is James? and how does one load their plant with pods? Nevermind, it does sound a little exhausting so I will just be glad I am not a plant. Whistling
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Nov 8, 2012 5:57 PM CST
Susan, James Hall is a hybridizer, he has the daylilies that start with BUDDY'S (ex: BUDDY'S RED HEAD or BUDDY'S DROOPY).
After I had to move and really had no place to move the daylilies to other than leave them at ex-fiances (which was getting to stressful) he asked if I wanted to plant them at his place since he has plenty of room and of course I jumped on it. In exchange for giving me a place for my daylilies and supplying pretty much all the wood for the beds, all the mulch (all mine I brought filled the beds), fertilizer, chicken litter, other chemicals, and anything else needed, I (and my best friend Kim) help him with his daylily chores such as LOTS OF WEEDING and then MORE WEEDING, dividing and potting up, during shipping we pull orders and wash them for him to ship, MORE WEEDING, I do all the chemical spraying every 2 weeks, building beds, digging trenches (by hand) for the sprinkler system and then laying the pipe for the sprinklers, did I mention WEEDING, and anything else that needs to be done, and then I mow the back half of the property. During hybridizing season I'll go behind his pollinating and tag the crosses and sometimes if he has other things to do I'll actually do all the pollinating. His is pretty easy, he uses one pollen on everything pretty much each day such as one pollen for the toothy ones and one pollen for the patterns, etc.

And we get fed everyday. We had to tell his wife to quit making soooo much food and dessert everyday, that we are fine with eating sandwiches. We started putting on weight with all the food she was making. nodding



One loads their plant with pods by pollinating them and making seed pods.
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Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 8, 2012 6:56 PM CST
Dag Michele, sounds like a full time job to me! Wow, I wonder if you ever do any, WEEDING. Blinking
I know what you mean about putting on weight, just makes the, WEEDING more difficult... I do love to eat!
BTW, what kind of chemicals does he get you to spray? I know it ain't for WEEDS. Rolling on the floor laughing

When one loads their plant, do they pollinate all the flowers or is one enough?
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Nov 8, 2012 7:48 PM CST
Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing it's basically 2 full time jobs since I have to do my stuff also.

I forgot to answer your "what to use" question. Since you don't have a gazillion daylilies yet you can just pick up something from Lowes or your local garden center. You will want a systemic (active ingredient myclobutanil or propiconazole) such as Spectracide immunox or ferti-loam systemic fungicide (actual name) plus a contact fungucide such as Daconil.

I use the professional products like Headline and the professional strength Daconil which is some of the chemicals I spray plus we add Nickel Plus which is suppose to help with the rust. Then there's the insecticide when the spider mites show up.
[url=www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com]www.pensacoladaylilyclub.com[/url]
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 8, 2012 8:06 PM CST
Ok... Now I have a headache! Rolling on the floor laughing .. OMG!!
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Jan
Hustisford, WI
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Cat Lover Daylilies Dog Lover Irises Region: United States of America
Region: Wisconsin
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philljm
Nov 9, 2012 1:03 AM CST
Susan, don't get overwhelmed. Much of this stuff is trial and error, and you need to figure out what works for you, in your area. Most daylilies are actually pretty hardy. But there are some, that do better in some places than others - and it doesn't always make a difference if they are EV, SEV or DOR. Being in south central Wisconsin, I initially tried to get just dormants, but discovered that I like a lot of the evergreens also - and everything in between. I now have a bit of everything, and some of each type do better than others. I might try something, and see if it survives.

There have been discussions on Rust. Here where I live, I see it in the fall, and have had it the past two falls. But because my temperatures get cold, it dies off in the winter during the freezing weather. For me, it doesn't do any harm. And both years I have had it because of purchased daylilies. (for some reason I keep buying them Whistling

Some of the discussions on Rust have to do on whether it is worth documenting which ones are Rust susceptible. There are several schools of thought - some centering on if it is wise to fill a garden with rust resistant varieties - or if that will just make them more susceptible if newer strains of rust come along. Or if having daylilies exposed to some rust actually makes them 'stronger' and more resistant in the long run... it all makes my head spin. And thankfully, even though there are disadvantages to where I live - such as cold weather that might kill off more sensitive varieties - the cold weather also helps me.

Again, don't get overwhelmed. Because if you DO notice a problem, or have more questions, the wonderful addicts... errr, folks here, Big Grin are always willing to help ~Jan
Name: Dot or Dorothy Parker
Fort Worth TX (Zone 8a)
Lilies Pollen collector Container Gardener Butterflies Birds Plant and/or Seed Trader
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Texas Daylilies Irises Cat Lover Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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Ladylovingdove
Nov 9, 2012 7:06 AM CST
Now you see why I didn't want to answer this question about evergreen and dormant. There are too too many variables. But as a general rule for me, most of my dormants are decreasing in size and vigor. They just do not get enough cold weather here to be happy.

Dot
Name: Teresa
South central KY (Zone 6b)
Consider the lilies of the field
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bluegrassmom
Nov 9, 2012 7:13 AM CST
I am glad to be in zone 6. I grow all types and they all seem to do ok here.
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 9, 2012 8:12 AM CST
Thanks All !!
Green Grin! ..Jan, Yeah I was a little concerned when I found out the rust is more common in the hot and humid conditions. I am not new to fungus. I will probably get rid of the ones that are considered VERY susceptible because it is hot and humid. Also I do not have them lined out like someone with a business. They are around the house and down the fence and do not get as much air circulation as I would like. I have always had problems with the roses. Little by little I have gotten rid of most of the roses because I just don't have time to spray them every day. The six foot privacy fence around a fairly small yard acts like a sauna and there is little air flow, Something I never thought about before. I will get some type of preventive fungicide-systemic, like Tink recommended. FYI, it takes our grass at least three days to dry whenever it rains. On the flip side, stuff grows like crazy. The plants love it.... well the roses didn't.

Green Grin! ..Dot, it seems to be getting to the point where we have less winter and I was worried about the dormants getting the proper cold spell.

Green Grin! ..Right in the middle ain't ya Teresa! You go girl.... Thumbs up
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
Daylilies Cactus and Succulents Container Gardener Dog Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers hot summers
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chalyse
Nov 9, 2012 1:06 PM CST
Hi Susan Group hug

Like the others, I agree that a middle of the road is a good path to follw, since all information on daylilies has its points and limitations. That said, and based on your climate zone (moderately warm) I'm assuming that rust and seasonal performance (Ev, Dor, Se) are important to you, since you've asked. They are important to me too, especially since we newer peeps are buying without the benefit of really knowing how daylilies will do in our gardens until likely many months (years?!) down the line. I don't want to spend a lot of money on fans that will not make it, perform at a minimum level, or that will die from other causes before I even get to see their blooms...

So, for my first year, and since no one can make a sure prediction, I only purchased the lower-priced ($5) "older" daylilies to start. There are a couple hundred of them (of all types and forms and colors, etc) that were tested back in the early 1990s as being resistant to rust, at least to the only rust strain that was present then, and that is a great place to start. What amazes me about those resistant cultivars is that many of them are very modern looking - you'd be surprised how "new, cutting edge" forms of 2010-2013 often look very, very similar to many from the 1990s, almost as though their look had been forgotten during the turmoil of rust arriving around 1991, and are being brought back now with just some updating.

That said, I dont' pass up a low-cost and good "old rusty" that I'd like, either. The fungus may spread to other daylilies in the garden if it appears, but mainstream science says the daylily's level of resistance is encoded in the genetics of each plant, so one rusty cultivar should not make others weaker. (If you did ever find that to be the case, it would be an important 'breakthrough' that should be formally documented and reported - it would turn the research science in a direction it has never documented evidence for before!). And, even rusty daylilies have an important role to play, especially if you think you might enjoy dabbling some pollen for fun. Some crosses with rusties will improve the offspring, and some will produce a range, but even those that perform less well have resiliance genes for other aspects of disease that, given the possibility of future new-strains of rust, might perform better than those that are doing well now. Sort of like evergreen daylilies in the north... some may not do well in the north right now, but if climate change keeps heating us up more and more, soon those same evergreens might outperform some dormants in warmer northern areas. If we'd tossed or left behind all the evergreens, then, we'd be at a loss in the future when we might need them for warmer country-wide climate.

On the other hand, I'd avoid expensive daylilies that do not do well with rust. Its a big, risky chance to take unless you are sure that you will be okay if they have problems or die with the rust. I like to think that by starting with older, better known, and cheaper varieties first, I'm getting a great chance to learn about daylily history with the least amount of risk. As I understand more about what works for me over the next year or two, I'll be able to confidently explore more expensive, "newer," and more "unknown" performance with a lot less regret. There is a saying in the world of breeding "build your house first and then paint it". I am building a foundation of strong-performance in the plant itself, and then can enjoy more leeway with choosing flowers over foliage.

Sounds like that may be an approach you are taking too, by asking questions and pondering all the variables. Awesome!

Oh, and here's a dumber-than-your question, too!! nodding FFO ... okay it means "first flower open"... I assume that means the first bud to flower for one single scape on one fan of one variety (and not the FFO of all the garden, as in "extra early fan"). But, since many cultivars re-bloom ... and in my limited experience the "FFO" on the first-bloom and on the re-bloom both are a little "off" (which seems to be why people use FFO; to excuse the look of that first-bloomer)... is FFO only reserved to excuse the first-bloom's flower, or can it also be used to describe a re-bloom scape's first bloom?

Three acorns to anyone who figures out what I just asked. Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing Rolling on the floor laughing
Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of old; seek what those of old sought. — Basho

Daylilies that thrive? click here! Thumbs up
Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 9, 2012 2:06 PM CST
Tina, Group hug ..I will gladly give you three acorns because it sounds like I should be using that as my excuse since nothing is the right form or color right now. Blinking .. The FFO's I've seen were actually bragging rights because the flowers were soooooooo perfect.
You are very smart to start off with the older cheaper, resistant varieties. I originally started with 15 really cheap single fans that I ordered the first of July. Then I kept finding more and more and more stuff that I really loved. I just got the cheap ones a few weeks ago but I must say I would never order any of those now if I knew what I knew now, hindsight is 20/20 you know?. Plus I was in shock by the way they looked. I was not used to the dried up black daylilies. It just started off as an experiment to see what did good in the garden so I was happy to get 15 different daylilies.

I did not know that rust could kill the daylily Sad .I thought I could just use some type of systematic fungicide to keep them from looking yucky. I like your idea about the pollen though, more resistant flowers would be good.
I do not believe I have purchased any real expensive ones, and it's not like the seller is going to tell me that it is susceptible, right?. So how do you actually find out the truth about the daylilies you are purchasing? I love the database here but not all cultivars have that information listed, quite a few do and I am certainly grateful for any and all information I can get right now. I tip my hat to you.
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
Birds Butterflies Container Gardener Hummingbirder Garden Ideas: Level 2 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle
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tink3472
Nov 9, 2012 5:03 PM CST
Susan, I posted this somewhere on here, but I will repost it. It's from the email robin about how NOT to get rust. I know most of us probably don't have enough room for a quarantine area, but doing the rest will help considerably. Also, if a daylily that is already planted shows signs of rust you can cut all the foilage back down to the white part and then this should help get rid of it. This isn't practical for large gardens that have a large outbreak of rust, but if just a few have it this can help stop it.



When RUST was first discovered in the U.S. (Georgia and Florida were mentioned ) WE THE PEOPLE managed to spread it all over the country.

We were told how to prevent this spreading, but most people ignored the instructions. For those who have battled Rust and do not want to repeat the war, here is what I remember of the instructions. This has worked perfectly for me, and Rust has never appeared here.
This method requires no expensive chemicals, depending on sanitation instead.

What you need:
1. a large plastic trash bag
2. clean sheets of newspaper spread around your work area to catch all debris so that no leaves or other discarded material will escape being bundled into your trash bag
3. Scissors and a sharp knife
4. Within reach: Some yarn and or string, marker, and plant labels just in case you need them
5. A bucket of water with a little Clorox in it
6. Some old towels on which to lay your plants when you have finished sanitizing them

What you will do:
1. Unpack a few plants. ALL BAGS, BOXES AN D PACKING MATERIAL WILL BE DISCARDED into your trash bag, or burned.
2. (I wear latex gloves for this part.) Starting with the cleanest plants, carefully wash them in your bucket of Clorox and water, making sure that no soil remains on the roots.
3. If a plant is carrying any Rust, most likely it will be in the form of dust on the leaves which you have now washed off. What you can't see is the spores hidden within the green leaves. Carefully remove all the daylily's outer leaves, right down to the white area. I found it safe to leave a few young central leaves which I trimmed back to no more than two inches or so. Safest is to eliminate ALL green growth.
4. I like to rinse the trimmed plants in a clean bucket of Clorox water, then lay them on the towels (out of the sun) while I finish preparing the rest of the batch.
5. Gather all the wrappings, trimmings, and any other debris which might carry Rust spores and seal them into your trash bag.

PLANTING: I like to pot all newcomers so that I can monitor their condition more easily. Planting directly into the ground is OK if that is your preferred method. What is important here is your Quarantine area. In case you missed a spore or two, all the new plants should be located away from any other daylilies, and should remain in quarantine until you can be absolutely sure that none has Rust. My quarantine area is on the east side of the house, at least 75 feet from anything except hardy shrubs, and out of the prevailing wind.

A few friends who complained that they did all this and still got Rust finally admitted that they had skipped some parts or had planted immediately out in their gardens. In your own garden, you get to choose what work you are willing to do. No one is going to arrest me for chopping down a nice Star Magnolia by our largest pond. Four years out of five its blooms were brown wads because of late freezes, and I found that truly ugly.

Those of you who speak of cutting back know what I mean about reaching the point of choosing how much work we are willing to continue doing. Ed likes crabgrass. Even when not fed or watered it stays green all summer.

BJ
Betty Jean Crichton
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Name: virginiarose
Virginia
Money talks but Chocolate Sings!
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Level 1 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Hibiscus Dragonflies Daylilies
Bee Lover Dahlias Butterflies Hostas Birds Lilies
virginiarose
Nov 9, 2012 5:45 PM CST
Wow, that is a great game plan. Green Grin! I will print this out and put it into my gardening notebook! Hurray! Hurray!
Susan

In the spring, at the end of the day, you should smell like dirt.....Margaret Atwood

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