Daylilies forum: Recessive Genes - Gotta Love It

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Name: Pat
McLean, VA (Zone 6b)
daylilly99
Aug 16, 2020 10:00 AM CST
It's always an interesting surprise when you DON'T get what you were hoping for.

A cross of this

Thumb of 2020-08-16/daylilly99/0ac839

with this

Thumb of 2020-08-16/daylilly99/746a00

Produced this.



Thumb of 2020-08-16/daylilly99/ecc2f4

Name: Ben
Maryland (Zone 7a)
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Benjoe90
Aug 16, 2020 10:18 AM CST
Wow thats unexpected. I would not have expected a pure yellow from 2 purples.
Name: Debra
Nashville, TN (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies Region: Tennessee Seed Starter
Image
shive1
Aug 16, 2020 10:21 AM CST
I got some surprises like that this year.

I crossed
Jungle Queen


and Amethyst Prism
Thumb of 2020-08-16/shive1/42aedf

and got this 8-inch round red. The other seedlings looked more like the parents.
Thumb of 2020-08-16/shive1/8dc052

The other surprising cross was

Victorian Lace
Thumb of 2020-08-16/shive1/f09ead

and Lace Sampler
Thumb of 2020-08-16/shive1/efe508

Yielded a 7-inch neon rose pink
Thumb of 2020-08-16/shive1/ebfd73

[Last edited by shive1 - Aug 16, 2020 10:22 AM (+)]
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Name: Ben
Maryland (Zone 7a)
Image
Benjoe90
Aug 16, 2020 10:30 AM CST
These are great examples of mendelian inheritance.

I wonder how many generations could hide a recessive color gene and still be able to pop up in later generations. I guess its all up to luck of which genes get passed along.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Aug 17, 2020 9:32 AM CST
@daylilly99
Are the two parents registered daylilies or seedlings?
How many other seedlings have bloomed from the cross? How many of those were not yellow?

Surprising results are not necessarily produced by "recessive" effects. Sometimes they are produced by insects pollinating the flower with an unknown pollen as well as the hybridizer pollinating the flower with a known pollen.

I have just come in from counting the number of "bee" pods set on two clumps of a tetraploid daylily. One clump had seven "bee"/natural pollination pods and the other clump had four.
Maurice
Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
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touchofsky
Aug 17, 2020 10:07 AM CST
I have had one yellow seedling pop up when four or five siblings were the colour I would have expected from the cross. That has happened a few times. Are they like kittens and can they have more than one father?
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Pat
McLean, VA (Zone 6b)
daylilly99
Aug 17, 2020 10:55 AM CST
admmad said:@daylilly99
Are the two parents registered daylilies or seedlings?
How many other seedlings have bloomed from the cross? How many of those were not yellow?

Surprising results are not necessarily produced by "recessive" effects. Sometimes they are produced by insects pollinating the flower with an unknown pollen as well as the hybridizer pollinating the flower with a known pollen.

I have just come in from counting the number of "bee" pods set on two clumps of a tetraploid daylily. One clump had seven "bee"/natural pollination pods and the other clump had four.


As far as I can recall, the results were otherwise as one might expect. They are both seedlings of mine.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Aug 17, 2020 11:30 AM CST
touchofsky said:I have had one yellow seedling pop up when four or five siblings were the colour I would have expected from the cross. That has happened a few times. Are they like kittens and can they have more than one father?


Yes the seeds in a pod can have more than one father.

Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Aug 17, 2020 11:47 AM CST
Wow, those are some odd outcomes. I thought getting out very early in the morning and doing cross-pollinations would mean that a bloom would not become bee pollinated. But I guess once, pollinated, it would have to be covered with something to keep that from happened.

Makes a body wonder how many registered daylilies have the wrong parentage listed.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Debra
Nashville, TN (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies Region: Tennessee Seed Starter
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shive1
Aug 17, 2020 1:29 PM CST
Sooby - I did not know seeds in a pod could have more than one father. Of the two crosses I posted above, all lthe other seedlings were color and form like I was expecting. Unless crossing in a greenhouse, how can a hybridizer guarantee their cross is what they have tagged?
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Aug 17, 2020 1:40 PM CST
shive1 said:. Unless crossing in a greenhouse, how can a hybridizer guarantee their cross is what they have tagged?


There are insects in greenhouses too Smiling

Safe Hybridizing by Oscie Whatley:

http://oldsite.daylilies.org/W...

Name: Valerie
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Irises Roses Peonies Butterflies Birds
Bee Lover Region: Canadian Ponds Garden Art Dog Lover Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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touchofsky
Aug 17, 2020 2:11 PM CST
In the case I was mentioning, I took a look at registered child plants, and one registered child was yellow and two were cream, so it would seem there could be a yellow one or cream one pop up, even though the parents were both a deep pink.
Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 17, 2020 2:34 PM CST
@sooby
Thanks so much for post that link.
Several months ago I was looking for how long before a rain the pollen would need to protected after being applied, and now I see it is one hour approximately. Never could remember where I read that at.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Aug 17, 2020 3:19 PM CST
touchofsky said:In the case I was mentioning, I took a look at registered child plants, and one registered child was yellow and two were cream, so it would seem there could be a yellow one or cream one pop up, even though the parents were both a deep pink.


@touchofsky Some of registered child plants could also have been from bee pods (unintended/unknown pollinations). There is no guarantee that any daylily hybridizer uses "safe" hybridizing techniques unless they state that they do so.

If you look at the ancestry of the registered parents then that may provide evidence for whether yellow or cream coloured seedlings are reasonable from the particular cross of the two deep pink parents. In some cases the ancestry of both deep pink parents might suggest that yellow or cream seedlings were possible while in other cases it might suggest that they would be improbable.

Maurice
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Aug 17, 2020 3:25 PM CST
@daylilly99

All the other seedlings were as you expected? How many seedlings have flowered from the cross?

Do you have a record of the parentage of the pod and pollen parents?
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Aug 17, 2020 5:59 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 17, 2020 4:22 PM CST
Seedfork said:Several months ago I was looking for how long before a rain the pollen would need to protected after being applied, and now I see it is one hour approximately.


@Seedfork

Any specific time period for the pollen to germinate is not really a constant. The pollen grains will not germinate until the stigma becomes receptive and produces stigmatic fluid. That means the pollen grains will not germinate quickly if the flower is pollinated before the pistil is receptive (before stigmatic fluid has been produced). For example, if the hybridizer wants to be absolutely certain that only the pollen they place on the stigma has a chance and they open the flower the day before it will be ready to open on its own (or earlier) and pollinate it then the pollen will probably not germinate for many hours.

Also for plants most development depends on the temperature. At lower (and higher) than optimum temperatures things take longer. Things happen the fastest at their optimum temperature. How long is required for the pollen to germinate may depend not only on the stigma being receptive but also on the temperature.

Maurice
Name: Pat
McLean, VA (Zone 6b)
daylilly99
Aug 17, 2020 6:05 PM CST
admmad said:@daylilly99

All the seedlings were different from your expectations? How many seedlings have flowered from the cross?

Do you have a record of the parentage of the pod and pollen parents?


My record keeping is not that perfect but I have this. Pollen parent 17-128 (second photo) has in its lineage Gnashing of Teeth, Red Friday (both just below) along with some lost parentage.

Thumb of 2020-08-17/daylilly99/d4b30f

Thumb of 2020-08-17/daylilly99/1f5110

Pod parent (first photo) has Spiny Norman (just below) and some lost parentage.



I found only one other seedling from that cross.

Thumb of 2020-08-18/daylilly99/65c86c

Almost everything else involving the same pollen parent is burgundy to near black with one dark red.... except for Spiny Norman x 17-128 , which looks like this.

Thumb of 2020-08-18/daylilly99/3c42f7

So burgundy and burgundy can apparently make yellow.

Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
Image
admmad
Aug 17, 2020 9:02 PM CST
@daylilly99
Thank you for the details.
For two daylilies that both have anthocyanin coloured flowers to produce a yellow seedling both parents would typically carry two copies or more of yellow. Typically the yellow pigments(s) would be present in the flowers with the anthocyanins but hidden by them. It would tend to make the anthocyanin coloured flowers not clear - possibly muddy or drab.
If the cross had produced near-white seedlings that would be easier to explain than yellow seedlings.
The known ancestry of the registered daylilies involved does not contain yellows or near whites, creams, etc.
Is it possible that the lost parentage involved crosses with near-whites?
Maurice
Name: Pat
McLean, VA (Zone 6b)
daylilly99
Aug 18, 2020 7:23 AM CST
admmad said:@daylilly99
Thank you for the details.
For two daylilies that both have anthocyanin coloured flowers to produce a yellow seedling both parents would typically carry two copies or more of yellow. Typically the yellow pigments(s) would be present in the flowers with the anthocyanins but hidden by them. It would tend to make the anthocyanin coloured flowers not clear - possibly muddy or drab.
If the cross had produced near-white seedlings that would be easier to explain than yellow seedlings.
The known ancestry of the registered daylilies involved does not contain yellows or near whites, creams, etc.
Is it possible that the lost parentage involved crosses with near-whites?


Anything is possible, including that my eyesight is so bad that I wrote down the wrong seedling numbers from what was written in pencil on the plastic tag. It's been an interesting (if not fruitful) exercise. Thanks for stimulating my mind somewhat. Back to the real world to see if there might be one more new daylily blooming today. I think one more of the seedlings planted this spring will bloom. This has been a record setting year in more ways than one.

Name: Pat Strong
Stone Mountain (Zone 8a)
Region: Georgia Dragonflies Ponds Cut Flowers Dahlias Birds
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Pat236
Aug 18, 2020 10:54 AM CST
@daylily99
I know you guys are trying to have a serious conversation here but, if my husband and I looked like those purple flowers and our baby looked liked that yellow flower, I would have some "splaining" to do! Confused Confused Confused
Pat236
[Last edited by Pat236 - Aug 18, 2020 7:51 PM (+)]
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