Daylilies forum: Canoeing in patterned daylilies

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Name: David McCausland
Horseheads, NY (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Region: New York Enjoys or suffers cold winters Plant and/or Seed Trader Hybridizer Hostas
Bedmaker
Aug 18, 2020 1:46 PM CST
I would love to hear people's theories as to why many of the patterned daylilies tend to want to canoe. The canoeing behavior is something I really don't like and I have removed those daylilies from my garden. I love many of the patterned daylilies and would love to add some to my collection and hybridize with them, but I don't want any canoeing. The only canoeing I want is in a body of water. I also know that many of the patterns look like ripples, so it makes sense for the petals to canoe.

I would also appreciate a list of daylilies that have patterns without the canoeing.

Thanks,

David
Name: Johan
Belgium (Zone 8b)
Region: Belgium Daylilies Region: Europe Bee Lover Butterflies Dog Lover
Lilies
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Johanvanheusden
Aug 18, 2020 2:32 PM CST
Hy David ,

I also dont like the canoeing with the patterned ones , but its all genetics.
When you look into the parents and grandparents you will modtly find canoeing there.

I am trying to reduce the canoeing by using older ones , i call them the forgotten ones to try and stop the canoeing , for example

Trough the looking glass x waves of joy , Trough the looking glass dus not canoe here
Also , Static , Tremor , barcode and other oldies maybe will do it for me , most of these older have also constant patterns
Some other maybe of interest are ,
Etched eyes , Funky Blues , Racing the Moon ......... x Bow Tie Affair for example
Hope to helped a bit

Johan

Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
Dog Lover Hybridizer Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Photography Keeper of Poultry Organic Gardener
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Char
Aug 18, 2020 5:28 PM CST

Moderator

Agree David, I don't like them either.
I think one problem on the fuller forms is incorrect folding of the petals as they develop in the bud which causes the petal that doesn't have a petal edge over it to curl on both sides, canoe. Petals should have one edge under one edge over the petal on either side. The ones curl on all three petals obviously have no edges under. Smiling I'll use one of mine to illustrate what I mean....


Here's a list of some I grow that rarely fully canoe, some have the slightly curved edge which I don't mind. Most don't have newer fancy broken patterns but could be used in crosses for broken patterns and they're hardy.
Jerry Hyatt and kids, grandkids...



There's a Place and kid, Smuggler's Notch


Painted on Jeans


Echo Beach, becoming a favorite and Hiding Place


Waggle Dance and Let the Sea Resound


Razzle Dazzle Candy and Timeless Beauty


and a skinny, She's So Outrageous
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 18, 2020 7:51 PM CST
Genetics is definitely involved.

A question for you all @Johanvanheusden @Bedmaker @Char

Is there a flower colour that is more likely to canoe in the patterned daylilies?

There is one plant species in which a particular flower pigment causes the flowers to canoe.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Aug 18, 2020 7:53 PM (+)]
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Name: Johan
Belgium (Zone 8b)
Region: Belgium Daylilies Region: Europe Bee Lover Butterflies Dog Lover
Lilies
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Johanvanheusden
Aug 19, 2020 4:45 AM CST
Maurice ,

I dont think color is involved , canoeing dus ocour with all colors
When i look here in my garden and friends gardens all kinds of colors canoe ,

Sweet Goldoni , Greek Art , Boomerang Effect , Bow Tie Affair , Inner Rumble , Four Beasts In One , Butterfly Cove ........

Genetics are involved , but so many things , to cold early in the season
Location in the garden , setteling ......... strange things those daylilys
Here early in the season when temperatures are to cold they canoe , but when the temperatures rise it is less .
I have used Cobalt Rings a lot this year , this one dus not canoe and is nicely patterned , will see it in the seedlings in 2022

Johan
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Aug 19, 2020 8:30 AM CST
Sorry, I should have been more detailed. The pigment that could be involved would be one that may be present in the eyezone of some patterned daylilies that canoe consistently even at high temperatures.


Specifically, in the lighter coloured areas of the eyezone (in daylilies that were photographed in the same garden and growing conditions, on the same day, etc.)
Maurice
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
Clematis Lilies Birds Garden Art Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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floota
Aug 19, 2020 10:32 AM CST
IMHO, some of this trait can be traced back to Morss's PAPER BUTTERFLY, registered way back to 1983. It consistently canoed, and people used it , as it was thought to be " all that" as it won all kinds of awards. GERDA BROOKER, one of its offspring, also tunneled, JULIE NEWMAR, etc. I got rid of all of them, , as I didn't like the trait either.....There may be other lines too, as some of Pat Stamiles earliest patterns tunneled too, but he may have used Paper Butterfly.
[Last edited by floota - Aug 19, 2020 10:33 AM (+)]
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Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Aug 19, 2020 11:28 AM CST
Not sure if I have any patterned daylilies. Paper Butterfly canoes for me quite a bit and I am of the opposite opinion because I really like it when it canoes. Although, with patterns, I might feel differently because canoeing would affect the aesthetics.

Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Debra
Nashville, TN (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies Region: Tennessee Seed Starter
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shive1
Aug 19, 2020 11:29 AM CST
I don't mind the canoeing, as long as it's not extreme. I do agree with Julie that a lot of this traces back to Paper Butterfly in the family tree.

Here are some I grow that don't canoe:

Stenciled Infusion
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Rings of Triton


No Man's Land


Tides Roll In
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The oldie Aztec Headdress produces kids that don't canoe.

Aztec Headdress
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These are some of my seedlings from it.

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Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Aug 19, 2020 2:16 PM CST
Those are super nice, Debra!
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Aug 19, 2020 2:23 PM CST

Moderator

Maurice, no I don't see a relationship to color or the colors in the pattern. Canoeing happens in solid eyes as well as solid colors. Narrow petals more than wide....Genetics are involved, the older Paper Butterfly or newer Stenciled di Fresco lines are good examples, but there are other factors as Johan said.

Debra, I lost both Stenciled Infusion and Rings of Triton this spring. Nice sdlgs.
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
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Dennis616
Aug 19, 2020 4:17 PM CST
Amazing to see this thread. Just last week I actually was thinking about canoeing petals and if there is any pattern to which daylilies have it and if it could actually be traced back to some specific historical daylilies as the source.

I don't have many patterned daylilies-- I am seeing canoeing on other types. Don't really notice yet any patterns to which ones have it.

I was surprised to see it on one of my older ones-- Munson's Samurai Silk from 1973.
Thumb of 2020-08-19/Dennis616/a87d4e
It often does it worse but I don't save photos of that...

I have noticed that in my experience many daylilies sometimes seem to be prone to canoeing on one petal only, possibly the upper left one more often than not. Not sure if there really is anything to that...



Name: Roger & Karen
Birmingham, Al (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Alabama Butterflies Enjoys or suffers hot summers Seed Starter
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Diggerofdirt
Aug 19, 2020 10:34 PM CST
I was wondering the same thing. If there were any patterns that had canoeing effect. We have Gerda Brooker and I didnt notice it show those characteristics. I like sculpted and canoeing. ALL shapes,colors and old and new.
I also wonder has anyone done a canoeing double or for that matter have never seen a patterned double. I am still new to this working on third year all in. If there is any such you all please share.
Every home needs a daylily, and every daylily needs a home.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Aug 20, 2020 7:12 AM CST
I thought I knew what canoeing was, inward curving of the petals or sepals, but I am having a hard time finding an actual definition, is it not an official descriptive word, or I have I somehow overlooked it?
Name: Nancy
Downers Grove, IL (Zone 5b)
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nancyindg
Aug 20, 2020 8:04 AM CST
Larry, yesterday I looked at the Daylily Dictionary and didn't see a definition for canoeing so I used the form and made a suggestion that it be added. I'll keep checking to see if it has been added and will report back here.
Name: David McCausland
Horseheads, NY (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Region: New York Enjoys or suffers cold winters Plant and/or Seed Trader Hybridizer Hostas
Bedmaker
Aug 20, 2020 10:01 AM CST
I am a little late in responding to all of the posts in response to my initial question. Thanks for all the feedback. What got me started on this track was looking at Ron Reimer's website and he is working with patterns and I noticed that several of his has some canoeing. I also grew PAPER BUTTERFLY early on in my daylily addiction and the canoeing in the throat was a real turn off, so I got rid of it. Then I decided to try again with IMPRINT YOUR IMAGE and it certainly canoed. It also left the garden. Before Julie commented about PAPER BUTTERFLY, I had a feeling that I could probably find PB in the background in a lot of these plants with patterns. Thanks all for posting pictures. I will continue to watch this thread and I will e-mail Mr. Reimer for his thoughts on this topic.

David
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
Daylilies Region: Texas Hostas Irises Region: Michigan Hybridizer
Garden Photography Butterflies
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SunriseSide
Aug 20, 2020 10:34 AM CST
Paper Butterfly is a tet so there must be some other progenitor for canoeing in diploids.
Life is better at the lake.
Name: Nancy
Downers Grove, IL (Zone 5b)
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nancyindg
Aug 22, 2020 8:22 AM CST
This past week I submitted a request to add Canoeing to the Daylily Dictionary and this morning I had a response from Susan Bergeron, Chair, ADS/AHS Scientific Studies Committee. She said she has started the process of creating a definition. Once the Committee has completed their work the definition will be uploaded.
Name: David McCausland
Horseheads, NY (Zone 5a)
Daylilies Region: New York Enjoys or suffers cold winters Plant and/or Seed Trader Hybridizer Hostas
Bedmaker
Aug 24, 2020 11:05 AM CST
I e-mailed Mr. Reimer about canoeing daylilies, since he is working with patterned dips with a variety of patterns. He stated that he does not like the canoeing in the throats of patterned daylilies and has been working hard to breed that out of his lines. He said that he has several with the ripple and block effect that canoe slightly and has a few future intros that do not canoe. He does not have a theory as to why certain cultivars canoe and others do not. If I had the time, I would do some more intense study on this topic and looking at the transition of the throat to petal tissue as well as look at the ripple pattern and its affect on the canoeing of the petal. I would also want to know about the overnight temps and the expression of the pattern - when the pattern is not visible, does the petal still canoe? Many questions and no answers. I will leave this up to people who have more time to devote to this topic study it out.

David
Name: Debra
Nashville, TN (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies Region: Tennessee Seed Starter
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shive1
Aug 24, 2020 11:15 AM CST
David - Temperature fluctuations between night and day temps seem to bring out the most pronounced Canoeing. I know Guy Pierce's catalog copy says Venetian Pools does not canoe for him, but it certainly does for me in the early part of the season.

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