Lilies forum: Ploidy of 'Fusion' (Lilium longiflorum x Lilium pardalinum)

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Name: SteveW
Bellingham area, WA (Zone 8b)
Busy building a lily collection...
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Steve2020
Sep 16, 2020 12:54 PM CST
Does anyone know the ploidity of 'Fusion'? I originally suspected that it is a triploid, as I understood that crosses of distantly-related species facilitated by high ambient temperatures and embryo-rescue are typically triploid. I ask because 'Fusion' pollen appears sterile when attempting a L. pardalinum x 'Fusion' cross. I've tried two-years running with no success, and this would be consistent with Fusion being a triploid. But this year I have found that 'Fusion' x L. pardalinum crosses have been quite successful, and the embryos look fine to me. So this implies that 'Fusion' is fertile when exposed to pardalinum pollen, which seems to be contradictory to my triploid thesis. Any ideas or experiences anyone? Can you get fertile triploids with sterile pollen? If so, then this is my error in understanding as I thought triploids are generally infertile as pod and pollen parents.

I should add that my vague thought is to see whether any subsequent F2 crosses of 'Fusion' x L. pardalinum seedlings would create a longiforum-form flower with some elements of pardalinum coloring. (Of course I could also simply say that I'm dabbing pollen around to see what works; I'm not sure that I am so calculating a hybridizer as my original statement implies!) Certainly the pardalinum x kelloggii crosses I have made have generated a vast amount of seed this year, as have my kelloggii crosses, so there will be plenty of material for the NALS Seed Exchange later in the year.
Name: Luka
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Lucius93
Sep 16, 2020 2:28 PM CST
If so, then this is my error in understanding as I thought triploids are generally infertile as pod and pollen parents.

If I am not mistaken triploids can be pod parents without problem but not pollen parents because they are infertile.
I think every lily can be pod parent. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Name: SteveW
Bellingham area, WA (Zone 8b)
Busy building a lily collection...
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Steve2020
Sep 16, 2020 4:39 PM CST
I take your point, Lucius. Perhaps I misstated in my post above. I was surprised that my triploid x diploid cross seemed to have worked. I'm assuming here that Fusion is a triploid and my pardalinum bulbs from B&D Lilies are diploid. (Certainly my seed-grown keloggii are.) I had originally thought that you needed a triploid x tetraploid cross to be successful; i.e. the pollen-parent should have the higher chromosome count. Perhaps Fusion is just a sterile diploid? I haven't been able to find confirmation of Fusion's ploidity, hence the question.
Name: Joshua
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Australis
Sep 16, 2020 8:20 PM CST

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Triploids can be pod parents (when crossed with 2N or 4N), but there will be crosses that simply won't work due to incompatibilities. Triploids will often produce lower viable seed counts than diploids or tetraploids.
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[Last edited by Australis - Sep 16, 2020 8:21 PM (+)]
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Name: Tracey
Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
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magnolialover
Sep 17, 2020 6:48 AM CST

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Also of note that high heat (90s-100 F range)temperatures have the possibility to make crosses potentially work that may not work in average temps. I have had the same protected cross fail some years, only to have high heat make for success in other years.

I am not sure about ploidy of 'Fusion'. If I were working with it, I would use it as a pod parent and slather a nice bunch of mixed pollen on it, both 4n and 2n and see what transpires.
Tracey
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
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Leftwood
Sep 17, 2020 8:09 AM CST
I don't have an answers for you, but it is exciting that you have good looking seed. This is the first hurdle to overcome. Next will be if the embryo and endosperm DNAs are compatible. Then...., and then..., and then.... nodding But we all keep trying! Thumbs up

If the Fusion pods are normally shaped, I suppose there could be a very slight possibility of apomixis. Darm Crook's experiments showed that Ll. pardalinum and longiflorum not apomictic, but L. parryi can be. Of course, he can't be scientifically conclusive, so maybe .....

Stranger things have happened, as they say. I have a bulbils on a cold damaged aurelian and on an orientpet broken stem this year.

kriegsherren
Sep 17, 2020 3:25 PM CST
What would be interesting is to see if Fusion's pollen worked on Lilium longiflorum. What we might have here are similar limitations that the original cross faced. It would be ironic if Fusion is a pod parent for Pardalinum pollen and a pollen parent for longiflorum pods. In a way it would be rather unsurprising really.
Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
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Lucius93
Sep 19, 2020 9:03 AM CST
Speaking about 'Fusion':

Also 'Fusion' is pardalinum x longiflorum not other way around.
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides Weeding
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
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gwhizz
Sep 20, 2020 8:01 PM CST
I'll try some on the 'Moon' LO series , this summer
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: SteveW
Bellingham area, WA (Zone 8b)
Busy building a lily collection...
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Steve2020
Sep 21, 2020 8:51 AM CST
Thanks for the note, Lucius. I can see that there could be some confusion over the direction of the cross as bulb companies supplying Fusion clearly state that it's 'Fusion' - Easter Lily x L. pardalinum (B&D Lilies); Lilium 'Fusion' - the worlds first Lilium longiflorum x Lilium pardalinum (Brent & Becky's Bulbs); Botanical name: Lilium longiflorum x pardilanum 'Fusion' (The Lily Pad) to quote just three examples. It is of course possible that the bulb companies are all following the same originally misstated description of the bulb.
I do see that the forum's "Lilies Database" has it shown as Lilium pardalinum x Lilium longiflorum, and that the 6th Supplement to the RHS International Lily Register & Checklist (2007) has "Fusion" simply as pardalinum x unknown, with no breeder credited.
I agree with the B&D Lilies description that "Flower color and form is typical of Lilium pardalinum, while leaves mimic an Easter Lily, being longer and more graceful." I do note that in my "Fusion" that the lack of clearly whorled leaves that are very evident in the pardalinum species led me to accept their statement of longiforum being the pod parent. But I can see that I may have to reassess that assumption!
Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
Köppen Climate Zone Csa
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Lucius93
Sep 21, 2020 9:57 AM CST
This lily is in Division IV (American hybrids) which means lilium pardalinum is (should be) pod parent. If lilium longiflorum is pod parent then this lily should be Division VIII. I usually believe RHS lily register which states lilium pardalinum as pod parent. Doesn't mean it's true but...
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
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Leftwood
Sep 21, 2020 10:07 AM CST
If the Lily Register contradicts supplier info, ....hmmmm....

The general thought that more flower traits come from the dad (pollen), and more of the structure and foliage comes from the mother, doesn't always hold. The more I work with lilies, I am getting the idea that this is less and less true as lily genetics become more jumbled and less in their natural order. Anything other than diploids, and certainly such a wide cross, would fall into this category. But, it's just a theory in the sky for now.

Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
Köppen Climate Zone Csa
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Lucius93
Sep 21, 2020 10:16 AM CST
@Leftwood If we do species x species I think that more flower traits would be from mother and more of the structure and foliage comes from dad. Example: 'Black Beauty'. Also 'Fusion' (if pardalinum as pod parent is true). But, as you said, there is no rules in lily world.
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
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Leftwood
Sep 21, 2020 10:49 AM CST
You are proving my in-the-sky theory, Lucius. Those are about as far away as you can get from a naturally occurring cross.
Name: Luka
Croatia (Zone 9a)
Köppen Climate Zone Csa
Lilies Bulbs Seed Starter Xeriscape Container Gardener Sempervivums
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Lucius93
Sep 21, 2020 11:24 AM CST
There is also henryi and candidum cross, auratum x henryi, longiflorum x daurichum.

kriegsherren
Sep 25, 2020 4:43 PM CST
Lucius93 said:There is also henryi and candidum cross, auratum x henryi, longiflorum x daurichum.


A (L. henryi x L. candidum) x Fusion would be interesting. Supposedly it's pod fertile. Would probably be more embryo rescue though.
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Oct 4, 2020 8:00 PM CST
Steve,

I wouldn't assume that species wide crosses are triploid. I think there are far more diploid F1 wide crosses than triploid. Where this gets confusing is when seedlings are produced from the F1 they often are triploid as the wide cross is more likely to produce unreduced gametes and breeds like a tetraploid. So Fusion (L. pard x L. long) x L. pard could produce triploid offspring. I am not saying it is always this way but there are many examples I could give to support this as a very possible outcome. Thank you for sharing your success with this cross - seems like it would be interesting to try other WNA species/hybrid pollen (like L. kelloggii or L. parvum) on Fusion to get other color patterns/genetics into this line.

Leftwood,

The comments about the pod vs. pollen parent traits carrying through as more dominant in the offspring is not a scientific concept. There are many that like to say the pod parent traits are more important for one reason or the other. I have asked this question of many reputable plant breeders that are trained on this and the answer is consistent that neither parent carries more weight in the genetics of the offspring. The only exception to this is something like hosta where the pod parent is a critical link to streaked hosta (streaked pod parent exponentially increases the odds of streaked leaf seedlings). I believe people tend to believe one parent is dominant over another for several possible reasons:
1) they don't raise enough seedlings of a cross to see the full characteristics of all the seedlings
2) they don't account for certain traits being dominant regardless of whether it comes from pod or pollen parent
3) due to fertility they tend to use certain lilies as pod or pollen parents that have dominant characteristics that would come through regardless but are only used as pod or pollen as it produces better seed
4) someone else told them and they assume it as correct and continue to propagate this misinformation
I would be glad to share more on this if interested.
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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Leftwood
Oct 4, 2020 8:30 PM CST
And I have always said I don't claim to be a breeder, just a "happy hybridizer" with limited experience and very limited space. Thanks for your insights, Patrick!
Name: Patrick
Midland, Michigan (Zone 6a)
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auratum
Oct 4, 2020 8:59 PM CST
Leftwood said:And I have always said I don't claim to be a breeder, just a "happy hybridizer" with limited experience and very limited space. Thanks for your insights, Patrick!


I am with you Rick - same here. Happy to be able to do this as a hobby.
Name: SteveW
Bellingham area, WA (Zone 8b)
Busy building a lily collection...
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Steve2020
Oct 6, 2020 12:17 PM CST
auratum said: ... it would be interesting to try other WNA species/hybrid pollen (like L. kelloggii or L. parvum) on Fusion to get other color patterns/genetics into this line.


I agree with you, Patrick. My attempt at 'Fusion' x pardalinum was driven largely by what I had in flower at the time. Given the close characteristics of both these two I wonder why I made the cross! I agree that getting lighter colors into the Fusion line would be quite interesting. I do have kelloggii and maritimum that will flower again next year (and I have seeds from each of these collected this year) so I will try some other crosses next year. My kelloggii seedlings that have flowered this year had quite a bit of color variability, so I will be pursuing this some more. This year I have made pardalinum x kelloggii crosses which have provided abundant seeds. I also have a few possibly viable embryos of maritimum x kelloggii, but I will have to see how these play out...

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