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Avatar for JungleShadows
Nov 17, 2020 9:35 AM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sol,

I agree that sedums are more difficult and the only group I play with are some of our Pacific NW natives, laxums and spathulifoliums, that rarely do cross and make very low fertility hybrids. Even that was disrupted by the voles and moles this year.

I'm sure the nurseries would be happy if we could produce plants that NEVER flower and that was why I tried with some calcareum breeding WAY back as a kid as they so rarely bloom. Oddly enough 'Greenwich Time' and F1 calcareum hybrid blooms as frequently as its montanum parent. In the F3 I'm seeing some plants that look like velvety calcareums. I gathered more seed from the F2 hybrid this year. It makes vey few seeds but is better than 'Greenwich Time' itself so it's making more functional gametes than its parent.

The GT kid has flowers of a rather nice pink, stronger at the base of each petals like the calcareums.

Kevin
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Nov 17, 2020 2:24 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Kevin,
That last post reminds me of Chris H's 'Angelina's Teacup', a hybrid of sedum Angelina painstakingly bred for four generations just to eliminate the more constant blooms of it's great grandparent. What a hard thing to breed for when you require the very thing you are trying to eliminate to raise the next generation!
Despite acknowledging the desire of a nursery to have semps that bloom less frequently, it certainly is helpful to us as hybridizers to have the option to work with a plant each season. Perhaps the nurseries might forgive a plant that blooms regularly if it's blooms were exceptionally beautiful. There's definitely got to be a higher ratio of offsets to blooms though, no one likes a bloom-out! I notice the wulfenii hybrids tend to bloom more than others, I crossed many of those with my first calcareum bloom ever from 'Pink Pearl' this year. Hopefully I'll get some interesting wulfenii calcareums with more reasonable bloom frequencies.
I'm very interested in seeing your velvet calcareums!

On another note, what do you make of the brownish tint in this bloom...
Thumb of 2020-11-17/GeologicalForms/e0b9fd
It comes from mountain crest's 'Comet', an orangish brown plant that fades to green with very small patches of velvet towards the end of the leaves and strong fringe cilia. I think the obvious contributing species is marmoreum but I feel like there is probably something else at work here to.
Thumb of 2020-11-17/GeologicalForms/d04c1c
This is MCG's picture of the plant during it's most radiant color phase:
other less tawny hybrids seem to be very prevalent in the local nurseries here in Portland, versions of 'Commander hay' and 'Ruby Hearts' from Little Prince (possibly incorrect names) bare a strong similarity to this plant though they are more grey/purple than orange/yellow but all have the brown overtone and slightly golden pink flowers.
Thumb of 2020-11-17/GeologicalForms/7e0e96
(That's the version of 'Ruby Heart' I see all over the place) I've been raising seed from this group of similar plants and hope to shed some light on their heredity. This year I made several crosses between these and yellow flowering plants in hopes of making plants with golden yellow blooms.
-Sol
Avatar for JungleShadows
Nov 17, 2020 4:06 PM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sol,

We get those odd colors when pink/ red overlays yellow. The carotenoids are present in the sub-epidermal layers and the anthocyanin is in the epidermis. The colors merge and you get a blend of the two colors. The marmoreum/ grandiflorum mixes are more a greyed mauve but it's the same sort of overlay of colors from two sites of the pallette.

Unfortunately, I think your calcareum/ wulfeniis will give the same sort of sterile things like 'Greenwich Time'. Of course there is hope you get a few seedlings from these to get another generation.

Breeding for NO bloom is certainly difficult. Chris' breeding also selected for smaller stature/ different internodes and that may have helped him pick parents. Unfortunately I'm not sure what we could use on the way as a selection facor in the semps.

Kevin
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Nov 17, 2020 9:06 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Kevin,
So if these golden/tan pink blooms are from crosses of pink (likely the marmoreum influence) and the other parent had yellow flowers, that narrows it down quite a bit, in this case, would you think these are montanum marmoreums? it'd make sense with the plants being more velvety than the average marmoreum. You did post some F2 pictures from your marmoreum grandiflorums that looked a bit similar to these, but I think the look is more reminiscent of montanum than grandiflorum.
I would be a bit disappointed if the calcareum wulfenii's turn out to be dead ends, but I can always try to raise seed from them. They should at least look interesting IF they germinate. I also self crossed 'Pink Pearl' to start a pure calcareum line that should be fertile, hopefully there's enough variation in these to keep things interesting.
-Sol
Avatar for JungleShadows
Nov 18, 2020 12:52 PM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sol,

You can always check for montanum vs. grandiflorum by the resiniforous hairs. The grandiflorum ones have that sticky feel and smell faintly like pine. I know Lynn was surprised that you could tell the difference by feel and smell too.

I think a lot of the marmoreums have fringe on the edge of the leaves. Helen named one years ago called 'Marietta' that had fine hairs along the leaf edges and it was one reason I used it to cross with 'Denise's Cobweb' to give 'Fuzzy Wuzzy' and 'Hot Shot'. It also produced very short stolons. I like those tight clumps.

Kevin
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Nov 18, 2020 1:11 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Kevin,
Marmoreum seems to be the only subspecies (aside from the huef's I suppose) that comes either; completely smooth/hairless, with velvet, and/or with ciliated edges. The species brunefolium, eyrethraum and the pure cultivar 'Mars' all vary wildly from eachother. Fring cilia is very prominent and the marmoreum hybrids though, I've done some breeding with 'Red Rubin' which I suspect is nearly full marmoreum and it has the fringing as do many others.
-Sol
Avatar for JungleShadows
Nov 18, 2020 11:07 PM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
To me the erythraeum velvet is a different beast, the hairs are less raised so it's more like fine kid leather. There's obviously something raised but it's much different in feel. I also think the lumpers here missed the boat a bit with so may things under marmoreum.

The heuffs are odd in that the hairs seem to be a recessive character or at least I obtain some velvety ones from non-hirsute parents. The heuffs are diploids so this should be simple although the breeding behavior of 'Bros' has me totally stumped.

Kevin
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Nov 19, 2020 12:22 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Kevin,
Yes to me it seems the marmoreum group contains at least three different subspecies. The fine velvety greys, the ciliated browns/reds with sharply pointed leaves and the ultra smooth thick/wide leaved sorts. But hey what do I know? no degree in botany here. This is something for your laboratory friends to look into, perhaps a DNA analysis might prove what the naked eye suggests.
In a self cross of 'Starshine' I got one seedling with fine velvet. "Honey Drop" (as I have unofficially named it) is the one that gets the bumps on the leafs and looks remarkably similar to my grandiflorum x marmoreum/wulfenii/tectorum hybrids, many of which have a very slight velvet. Baring the possibility of contamination, I've come to believe that velvet can be recessive in plants with velvet grandparents, I think 'Starshine' is a thorough mutt, some of the seedlings show wulfenii traits (high wax content, grey hues), some show tectorum traits (classic shape and tip patterning) and all remind me a bit of the brunefolium type marmoreums, though none are quite brown. This particular seedling however is so similar to my grandiflorum crosses that either it was a cross contamination (I doubt because it's color is absolutely in line with it's self cross siblings) or 'Starshine' has a grandiflorum grandparent, the genes of which have lied dormant in and have come out as recessives in the self cross. I did more work with 'Starshine' this year, but unfortunately did not have the opportunity to self it, year before last I fastidiously self crossed an entire medium sized bloom stalk, applying pollen to each flower three days in a row. I only got three seedlings from that cross, one looks wulfenii one looks grandiflorum and one looks tectorum, so because of such skimpy results I'm hesitant to try selfing the cultivar again, it outcrosses much more readily, some of those groups have 40 plants or so. That bloom was essentially why I started hybridizing, I was in between jobs, living only off of the money I could make from my art and $4 sempervivum were the only luxury I afforded myself, using them in my planters allowed me to write them off of my taxes or so the justification went. Anyways at the time 'Starshine' was my favorite cultivar, and I only had one rosette and a very tiny offset, when it began to flower I went into panic trying to figure out how to hybridize so I could raise seed from my favorite plant before it died, thats when I stumbled upon a Kevin Vaughn hybridizing clinic video that had been posted on youtube, it was literally the only media I could find on the subject and my first handful of crosses were based on the info from that video. My technique hasn't changed much since then, but I can certainly afford to rebuy cultivars now.
-Sol
Avatar for JungleShadows
Nov 19, 2020 5:15 PM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Yes, I'm sure the genetics of those marmoreum varieties would be interesting. Of course velvet might be due to very few genes, even though it's a major phenotypic change it might not be as significant genetically.

Unfortunately we have so little data on pedigrees of our hybrids. It certainly is much easier to collect bee seed.

Ah I had forgotten about the videos that Toby made. Those were from the first two classes, when I was trying to get everyone caught up on the techniques. A couple years ago I did a soup to nuts lecture that I think was my best and is essentially what was in the book, but with more examples and walking through the yard.

Kevin
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Nov 19, 2020 8:16 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Kevin,
Raising seedlings seems to reveal a lot about the parents genetic makeup. A hybrid too mixed to guess at will often produce seedlings with much more telltale signs indicating one species or another.
For as popular as they are, I'm surprised there aren't more folks hybridizing semps out there, and also that there isn't more info on it available. I saw that video before your book was released, but the book definitely reached a niche audience that had very little existing info available on the subject. When I get through the book I'm reading now I might have to look into some of the older works you've mentioned.
-Sol
Avatar for JungleShadows
Nov 21, 2020 8:55 AM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sol,

Exactly. Polly encouraged me to do a test run with bee seed before investing in something as a parent. Occasionally these led to cultivars themselves as the numbers were so much bigger on those than my hand crosses. Some things are much better parents than they appear to be from their phenotype. 'Missouri Rose' is one that always surprises me. I numbered a bunch of its grandchildren this year, Even now, 50+ years since it was introduced I get a whole bunch of nice seedlings. Even in my modern stuff, 'Helen Payne' has given me not one numbered seedling whereas 'Polly Bishop' rarely makes a bad seedling. Combining it with 'Silver Song' was absolute MAGIC.

On the contrary there are some things that are losers as parents. You can be assured to pitch everyone of them. That's now why I stay in my own lines mostly as I get fewer pigs.

Kevin
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Nov 21, 2020 3:20 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Kevin,
Yes I'm starting to discover which parents I like, the ones that have high fertility and/or give particularly good seedlings have earned themselves permanent spots in my collection

In terms of just getting attractive seedlings, I see nothing wrong with bee seed, with that kind of volume your bound to get something good, but you do really get a mixed bag with tons of subpar crosses (depending on the pollen that was around at the time). Personally I'd rather not spend the time and bed space rowing out plants just to pull them later if I can avoid it, but I do have interesting things in almost all of my bee seed groups. It's most certainly true however that some of those groups have many more quality seedlings than others, and some traits of the pod parent are passed on to literally every seedling which is a good indication of how to use them in effective crosses for the future. For instance, in spring, I have a seedling in nearly every color from 'Silverine', but just about all of them (excluding some of the extra dark ones) go silver in august. Now of course if your hoping for silver in the seedlings there's nothing wrong with that so 'Silverine' remains an optimal parent for crosses with silver as an end goal, but if you'd intended to capture the form of silverine in a color other than dark purple or silver there'd probably be a better parent out there to achieve that goal. Patterns for leaf shape, velvet and other characteristics have emerged from my bee seedlings, knowing what to expect from these parents will help me decide how to use them in the future. Bee seed also gives you a good idea of how fertile a plant is, I raised a whole stalk of open pollenated 'Skrocki's Bronze' and got a single seedling, imagine if I'd tried to do hand crosses! It'd have been a complete waste of time.

My polly bishop style crosses will start showing color this coming spring, I have very high expectations for those groups both because they are large and also because they are guaranteed to contain some optimal crosses. I may not have enough turf to keep doing things that way, but it might be the quickest means to an end regarding short term breeding goals.

I had a 'Polly Bishop' bloom last year and got a 'Silver Song' bloom this year, so no chances to make that cross, not that I would have thought to though now that I think of it. That's such a wide cross, both in form and color, but it is the one that eventually resulted in your striped seedlings isn't it? I tend more often to cross similar plants or when crossing wide I am looking to combine traits like fur and color. Wide crosses seem so unpredictable, though some narrow ones have surprised me to.

Bad parents are definitely out there. I have this NoID I used my first and third year, sort of a large grey tectorum looking plant. The seedlings from the first year looked great and seemed to be very flexible in terms of color, hence my using it again, but now I'm seeing awful rot on almost all of the mature rosettes. I only had one or two look bad that first winter and now they're dropping like flies! I'm going to most certainly discontinue it's use, though I have packets of it's seed now and a decent slice of the seedling beds devoted to it's crosses. Such high hopes, so many beautiful plants, sooooo much rot! It's substantially worse than 'Lilac Time', only one of it's offspring I'd admired earlier in the year has remained unscathed.
-Sol
Avatar for JungleShadows
Nov 23, 2020 9:10 AM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sol,

There were only a couple seedlings from 'Silver Song' X 'Polly Bishop' but they were most interesting; a very dark purple with 'Silver Song' form and a blue with strong pink base were saved. Both of these have been incredible parents and several of the seedlings from these are under evaluation.

and yes when I make a wide outcross it's important to start inbreeding to pull out all the recessives. The striped one and an enormous (10"+) pink are in the F2 and I've just gathered the seed from the huge pink that will give me the F3.

I try to avoid anything with rotting tendencies as it only comes back to bite you in the butt later on.

Kevin
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Nov 23, 2020 5:06 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Kevin,
The 'Silver Song' x 'Polly Bishop' cross does sound to have worked out for you, especially in the second generation. I have some plants from a wide cross of grandiflorum x wulfenii, all of them are very different than anything on the market, though their color and velvet is a bit weak. I'm saving at least four of them and am really looking forward to crossing between them to see if I can generate some interesting new looks polished up enough to take to market.

As winter sets in and I have begun to see leaves die back it's crossed my mind to just yank everything with rot on it right now. I might have a few worth saving but it's hard to say if I should keep any of those around, no matter how good they might look in other times of the year.
-Sol
Last edited by GeologicalForms Nov 24, 2020 6:59 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for JungleShadows
Nov 24, 2020 8:39 AM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Sol,

Yes I have gone through some radical changes here. Everything that was having bad hair days got PITCHED. I decided I didn't want them in the yard if they're at all messy. Makes life easier when deciding upon what to cross if an offending plant isn't there to even use.

Life is too short to deal with bad plants now that we have so many good choices.

Kevin
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Nov 24, 2020 12:18 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Thanks for the affirmation Kevin, I may have to go on a rampage today!
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Nov 24, 2020 12:56 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Holding my hands over my ears so I can't hear the screams.
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Nov 24, 2020 3:50 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Rolling on the floor laughing when flora, no one can hear you scream Hilarious!
I keep bad looking ones aside in a holding pot till they look decent again, then I throw them in mixed containers of seedlings, give them to friends or plant them elsewhere in the yard, as long as they survive the transplant they'll get another chance. There are a couple however that are so bad I don't think they'll make it through the winter, with or without being pulled from the beds Sighing!
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Nov 24, 2020 6:52 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
*Blush*
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Dec 3, 2020 3:12 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Kevin,
Raising seedlings seems to reveal a lot about the parents genetic makeup. A hybrid too mixed to guess at will often produce seedlings with much more telltale signs indicating one species or another.
For as popular as they are, I'm surprised there aren't more folks hybridizing semps out there, and also that there isn't more info on it available. I saw that video before your book was released, but the book definitely reached a niche audience that had very little existing info available on the subject. When I get through the book I'm reading now I might have to look into some of the older works you've mentioned.
-Sol

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