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Jun 18, 2021 7:09 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Well it's that time again, blooms are popping up all over the place.
I hope some of you have found some of my images under the plant profiles already. To restate my goal for the year, I intend to photograph every bloom that happens on plants under my care. The named cultivars I'll be posting in the database entries, but I'll post images of my seedlings blooms here for my own reference, hopefully readers can enjoy them as well.
This is a tufted yellow seedling of mine, it will most likely never see the market but it is one that I like a great deal and I will be breeding it this year.
Thumb of 2021-06-19/GeologicalForms/0f5d68
Thumb of 2021-06-19/GeologicalForms/666eb9
It's parents are of x christii and arachnoideum descent, the flowers show what appears to be a predominantly arachnoideum shape and color, but towards the petal's tips you can see a slight striation of multi-tonal pink created by what I believe to be the x christii cross of pink montanum and yellow grandiflorum. I think because theres about 50% arachnoideum in here it explains the bottom half of the petals being that solid pink coloration.
This plant has a lot to contribute to it's offspring, the mounds are tight, the center of the rosette is pursed which I like, the color is interesting and there are just over 40 offsets from seed planted in 2019. I'm hoping one more generation will add distinction to this look.
More to come,
-Sol
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Jun 19, 2021 11:53 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Great bloom photo Sol. And thank you for the reminder about adding bloom photos to the database. Thumbs up
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Jun 19, 2021 6:40 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Yes more bloom photos! I am always disappointed when an entry has no bloom image.
-Sol
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Jun 20, 2021 10:44 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Just added a bloom photo for 'Knuddelbar'.
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Jun 20, 2021 12:20 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Lynn,
A beautiful bloom and a beautiful photo! I noticed that my knuddlebar bloom was approaching purple in color after growing in lower light, full sun seems to make their colors much more radiant.
Are you going to raise seed from 'Knuddlebar'?
My 'Knuddlebar' bloom rotted last year and produced no seed, but I do have some crosses to 'Alison' which germinated.
-Sol
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Jun 20, 2021 4:48 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Sol, I dug up the small 'Knuddelbar' rosette/bloom stalk and re-planted it with the 'Devil's Touch' bloom stalk. It is the only two with open flowers right now. Hopefully the tiny bees/flies will cross pollinate them. Neither one of them produce very many flowers.
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Jun 20, 2021 11:31 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
That would certainly be an optimal cross Lynn, thats the sort of thing I'm focusing on this year, fuzzy and colorful. I'd love to see what you get out of those two, they both have small stalks but the bee's are true professionals at setting seed so I'd bet you'll get something good between the two of them.

I'm interested to see how fertile 'Devil's Touch' is, on one hand, it reminds me of the extremely fertile 'Midas' in it's form and Sue told me she'd used 'Midas' in her lines, on the other hand, the stigmas start with that dark cap on them I've seen on those of 'Sea Coral', these caps seem to resist pollen. On 'Devil's Touch' they usually vanish once the flowers have reached maturity and the sticky substance which takes in the pollen replaces them at the stigmas tips, ideally that means they are fertile, but some plants never develop those dark caps and on 'Sea Coral' they lingered longer than normal. 'Sea Coral's pollen is good, but I don't think I got any viable seed from it's pods, which is unfortunate because I did diligent crosses on a couple stalk's worth of it. Since there are some similarities between the two varieties and they come from the same breeder, it wouldn't shock me if 'Devil's Touch' didn't produce well either, obviously it's got to be somewhat capable if Kevin and Inge have raised seedlings from it.
-Sol
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Jun 21, 2021 10:32 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Sol, time will tell. I tried hand crossing but so far had not found the stigmas receptive to the pollen.
I did as Kevin suggested, using the pollen from the newest bloom to open, onto the oldest bloom (first to open). I even used a magnifying glass.
I have so much to learn. Sighing!
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Jun 21, 2021 10:57 AM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Lynn,

I repeat each cross hoping to catch the stigmas at the perfect stage. About 930 AM is when the stigmas seem most receptive/ sticky although I generally start crossing at ~8 AM and continue until I'm finished. The paper bags tend to allow for earlier pollen dehiscence.

'Devil's Touch' X self only produced a few seedlings for me. One is a bit better, more vigorous and browner than mom, and it is just starting to bloom now. I have crosses between the 'Space Dog' kids and one Ukrainian hybrid with bright yellow flowers. The 'Space Dog' kids have that sort of odd shade of pink where there is an underlying yellow. One of them is yellow with a pink stripe that is the most grandiflorum-like in rosette characteristics. The Ukrainian plant is the the hairiest I've seen and it really doesn't match any of the known species and the flowers area bright lemon yellow, actually quite pretty. It was the first thing to bloom this season.

Hope that helps!

Kevin
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Jun 21, 2021 11:18 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Thank you for the help Kevin. Thumbs up
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Jun 21, 2021 1:49 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Lynn,
Yes as I've suspected and as Kevin's now confirmed; 'Devil's Touch' isn't the most receptive pod parent. Hard to imagine how handcrossed lines that started with 'Midas' could have bad pods, especially because 'Midas' probably has the most receptive ones of any plant I've used and Sue uses a brush to apply her pollen, which has never worked for me.
I'm curious, did you use tweezers to grab individual anthers and apply directly or did you use the whole flower on the end of the tweezers the way Kevin does?
I find that I can sometimes balance pollen on an unreceptive stigma, then it can just soak up the pollen whenever it's ready, but I often reapply when the flower looks thirsty. I usually hit them twice, but when time is short I only apply once and that hasn't prevented me from getting results. However, those dark caps I talked about won't let me balance the pollen on a young flower, and like I say not all plants have them.
Another thing I've noticed is that the pollen which has only opened part way doesn't spread well, sometimes the sacks will open and show some yellow but aren't really worth spreading until they peal back completely and the pollen is nice and loose. I've always wondered how long the stuff is good for hanging on to a flower at natural temperatures, dew would be something I'd worry might spoil all pollen in the mornings but I don't know, working inside I can control moisture which I do imagine helps. My crosses are all preformed after dark, it's allowed me to get those beautiful black background bloom photos I've been posting lately, but wouldn't be feasibly replicable outdoors.
I've got one of those magnifying lamps with the flexible arm but I don't have a table mount for it, always thought that'd be the most plush tool for making crosses. Someone gave it to me but hardware stores don't seem to have the table mounts on hand, I've been meaning to construct one but it just hasn't been in the cards lately.

Kevin,
You've certainly peaked my interest with talk of some mysterious Ukrainian hybrid with yellow blooms and top notch fur! Does it have a name?
The pink striped yellow flower on your 'Space Dog' kid sounds especially beautiful. I think we can solidly peg that one as an x christii possibly with some marmoreum. Many of these hybrids are just so thoroughly mixed that it's hard to tell though, 'Exorna', 'Martin (2?)' and my first grandiflorum NoID all had odd yellow/pink/tan colored flowers, so I'd expected these other velvets I'm working with this year to have similar bloom colors, but to my surprise some like 'Chocolate Dip' and 'Ilonka' have purple hearted creamy white flowers instead, very different. 'Ilonka' has absolutely massive flowers by the way, both pollen and pod seem really nice on that one, I'm excited to use it as a parent.
Your 'Space Dog' seedlings are marvelous, I bet your 'Devil's Touch' pick is also, though I've never seen it.
-Sol
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Jun 22, 2021 7:05 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
I used a small, soft paint brush. There are so few flowers, I didn't want to lose any.
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Jun 22, 2021 7:09 AM CST
Fairfax VA (Zone 7a)
Sedums Sempervivums Hybridizer Houseplants Cactus and Succulents Garden Procrastinator
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Photography Tropicals Native Plants and Wildflowers Miniature Gardening Wild Plant Hunter
My flower-stalking semp's lowers ~3 sets of leaves dissapeared. I don't know the cause. The stem is not rotted or broken, though.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, one of the baby semp chicks is also going to bloom. It is a "generic" semp that you'd see in rock gardens, or the ones you would find in the wild. Plain blue-green with dark red edge. Don't know what species it is, I have photos, just need to upload them later.
Last edited by sedumzz Jun 22, 2021 7:11 AM Icon for preview
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Jun 22, 2021 7:22 AM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Alex,

That's natural for the lower leaves to die off as the stem matures. Of course, the stalk will dry out completely as the seed matures.

Kevin
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Jun 22, 2021 7:35 AM CST
Fairfax VA (Zone 7a)
Sedums Sempervivums Hybridizer Houseplants Cactus and Succulents Garden Procrastinator
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Photography Tropicals Native Plants and Wildflowers Miniature Gardening Wild Plant Hunter
I can't wait to see flowers some time this year, it will be my first time seeing them in real life!!!!


Question:
Is there such thing as a double semp flower????
Last edited by sedumzz Jun 22, 2021 7:36 AM Icon for preview
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Jun 22, 2021 3:25 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
Lynn,
Yes I guess the paint brush method works for some people, my problem with it is that it seems to get pollen everywhere but where you want it, at least when I've tried. When dabbing the brush atop the anthers, it seems to nock most of the good fluffy stuff into the center of the flower instead of being picked up by the brush, then what little does get picked up by the brush is difficult to get directly onto the stigma tip without depositing even more pollen onto inactive parts of the flower your trying to use as the pod parent. Seems like it might be a good way to quickly self cross a plant with high fertility though, just to get in there with a brush at the right stage and make a big mess of things. Bottom line is I wouldn't be able to offer any advice on using a brush because it hasn't worked for me and no one's offered me a good step by step on the tricks of the method or suggested which sort of brush to use. I'm an anther cutter, like you I don't often have the extra flowers to spare in using the whole flower to carry the pollen. Instead, what I do is use moderately fine tipped tweezers to grab and sever 1-4 anthers at a time, carry them to the chosen pod, then apply the pollen directly to the stigma tip, that way the pollen goes right where it's needed, and sometimes you get the added bonus of being left with a flower you've used all the pollen from which is now ready for a protected cross (If you were careful not to spill!). I've tried it Kevin's way once or twice, might do more of it when I get a good piece of property and put my potted colonies in the ground.

Alex,
Yes bloom stalks die from the ground up. In a healthy situation the dying parts scenes and should appear dry, if any of it looks mushy it might have rot, which seems to pose a threat to the viability of the seed as it can become infected before the new seed is fully formed into it's dormant, self sufficient state.
Sometimes strange growth will happen to a bloom stalk, you often see a blooming rosettes smaller offsets bloom as well, occasionally a bloomstalk will produce rosettes instead of or in addition to flowers, then those strange offsets can also go into flower. I've also had multiple blooms which don't kill the rosette, these rosettes usually send up a second, smaller stalk the following season which finally ends their life cycle.
-Sol
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Jun 23, 2021 2:15 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Sol Zimmerdahl
Portland, Oregon (Zone 8b)
Container Gardener Garden Art Sempervivums
This is a bloom from a larger sibling to the last tufted yellow seedling I posted. The form on this one is substantially wider, it also has the yellow hue and is fuzzier on it's leaf tips though less velvet on the surface of it's leaves. The rosettes aren't pursed the way it's siblings are and the stolons are longer, so I might like the other one more, but this is a better plant in many ways, more color in most seasons and a little tougher in the winter not that either preformed badly.
Thumb of 2021-06-23/GeologicalForms/55d6b0
Thumb of 2021-06-23/GeologicalForms/d0a675
The blooms have more of a purple hue than the sibling, and the stripping is more pronounced, running the length of the petal with more of a tan hue.
I will enjoy throwing it in the mix this summer and plan to cross between the siblings eventually, though since this plant's color is subtle, I'm currently trying to use it for it's arachnoideum/grandiflorum fuzz in crosses with marmoreum erythraeum to produce blue's with a distinctive fur pattern.
-Sol
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Jun 23, 2021 6:31 AM CST
Fairfax VA (Zone 7a)
Sedums Sempervivums Hybridizer Houseplants Cactus and Succulents Garden Procrastinator
Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Photography Tropicals Native Plants and Wildflowers Miniature Gardening Wild Plant Hunter
The petals wide compared to other semp flowers. They're overlapping, which looks really fun. Garden fairies and gnomes could use it as a cup!!!
The leaves sort of match the flowers, they are also quite wide.
Is it possible to obtain a really purple flower???? I am pretty sure pink/red is dominant to white/yellow, so is purple a trait that can be decided by the same gene, with a different allele, or a different gene??????????? I am not very good at genetics (yet) so I don't know of a gene can have more than two alleles or if this applies to semps...
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Jun 23, 2021 10:03 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Lynn
Oregon City, OR (Zone 8b)
Charter ATP Member Garden Sages I helped plan and beta test the plant database. I helped beta test the Garden Planting Calendar I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator
Forum moderator I helped beta test the first seed swap Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant and/or Seed Trader Garden Ideas: Master Level
Nice bloom Sol. I see it already has pollen on the stigma.

Good questions Alex. I will let Kevin answer them. @JungleShadows.
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Jun 23, 2021 11:18 AM CST
Name: Kevin Vaughn
Salem OR (Zone 8a)
Alex,

Semps don't have the right pigments for purple. They have cyanidin but no delphinidin. Yuo get an odd pinkish purple efect when pink overlays yellow, but that's the closest.

You might borrow "Genetics is Easy" from the library. It's an easy read.

Kevin

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