Daylilies forum→An experiment - Evergreen seeds - No cold stratification

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Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 13, 2020 2:19 PM CST
Hi,
Last year I had hundreds of seedlings. Objective: rust resistance and evergreen.
When they got rust I pulled them out.

My garden is now packed with the rust-resistant (so far) daylilies. So I didn't want to do more crosses this year. But I did two random crosses of "evergreen / rust-resistant" daylilies. Couldn't help myself.

I let the seeds dry out for months. Recently, I soaked them overnight and planted the seeds in a pot. Within 10 days, most are up, nicely. I did not put the seeds in the frig. No cold stratification.

I wanted to see if evergreens could germinate without any cold. These did.

Have you ever tried germinating evergreen crosses with no cold stratification? My theory is that those daylilies that are evergreen have genes from warm weather daylilies. I don't want dormants, so if dormants don't germinate without cold, fine.

Thanks,
Bob


Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Nov 13, 2020 2:41 PM CST
Seed dormancy is not necessarily related to the foliage habit of the parents, it may relate to where the pod parent was grown while "pregnant", and possibly to dry storage (because seed dormancy can wear off over time during dry non-refrigerated storage). In published experiments seeds of both deciduous and evergreen species daylilies had some seeds with seed dormancy and some without.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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Seedfork
Nov 13, 2020 2:43 PM CST
One year I did some with and some without stratification. I got better results from the stratified seeds (they sprouted over a shorter period of time, not spread out over as many weeks as the non-stratified).
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 13, 2020 4:32 PM CST
Seedfork said:One year I did some with and some without stratification. I got better results from the stratified seeds (they sprouted over a shorter period of time, not spread out over as many weeks as the non-stratified).


Thanks. This will be an experiment to see if the quick sprouting "no refrigeration" seeds, from evergreen to evergreen crosses, produce a high percentage of evergreen plants. This study will not be scientific.

In my area, "hot Florida". most of my dormants are short-lived.
[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 14, 2020 12:15 PM (+)]
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Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 13, 2020 5:33 PM CST
sooby said: In published experiments seeds of both deciduous and evergreen species daylilies had some seeds with seed dormancy and some without.


Thanks. Pretty sure I read that research. Was that your study? Could you link that study again. If that is the study I know of, I read it several times. Not sure that it correlated spout time with foliage habit.

I do know that if the pod parent was grown while "pregnant" in hot Florida it doesn't determine foliage habit. I always felt it was the underlying genes of the ancestors. When I started I researched extensively for those historical parents.

Again, thanks.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Nov 13, 2020 6:42 PM CST
This was the study I was referring to, unfortunately the whole book downloads, but look for chapter 44:

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfr...

I didn't mean that the pod parent being in a warm climate while "pregnant" would determine foliage habit, I meant it's possible it determines whether or not the seeds have seed dormancy.

If we look at this another way, seeds of deciduous parentage in a cold climate like mine produce some seeds that germinate immediately without stratification, and some that don't germinate for weeks or months if not stratified. It's not likely that the ones that germinate immediately will be evergreen.

Obviously your seeds didn't have seed dormancy at the time they were started but they could be evergreen since they are of evergreen parentage. What happens if you do the same test with deciduous parents without stratification?
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 13, 2020 8:43 PM CST
sooby said: What happens if you do the same test with deciduous parents without stratification?


Thanks for the link.

Since my garden is packed already, I will be testing only a limited number of the very best evergreens to evergreens.

I may also test planting them immediately when the seeds drop. Only natural drying in the pod.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Nov 13, 2020 9:01 PM CST
It seems I once read that planting seeds immediately and not storing them would result in better germination.
Name: Zoia Bologovsky
Stoneham MA (Zone 6a)
Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover Butterflies Birds Region: Massachusetts Bee Lover
Daylilies
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Zoia
Nov 13, 2020 10:08 PM CST
You have to imagine that that would be the best system, as it's the ones the plants themselves have developed over thousands of years. Other than saving them for later, I was never sure what the point of drying out the seeds is anyway, as you just have to get them damp again as soon as you want to germinate them.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Nov 14, 2020 8:09 AM CST
The best I understand it, is the reason you wet the seeds after drying is that it takes a combination of cold storage and dampness to break dormancy.
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 14, 2020 9:26 AM CST
sooby said:This was the study I was referring to, unfortunately the whole book downloads, but look for chapter 44:


Titled:
Cold-induced Germination Promotion in
Hemerocallis dumortieri var.esculenta and H.fulva var. littorea Seeds.

They used two species plants. One does appear to be evergreen; the other dormant.

The research says:
"The different germination behaviour of H.dumortieri
var. esculenta and H. fulva var.littorea
seeds may be due to genetic factors, since these plants grow in areas with very different germination conditions."

This could support my theory. Doesn't matter. I will see what happens with daylilies that have scrambled genes that have dominant evergreen genes.

I'm not going to write a paper on this. If I can increase the likelihood that a seedling will be evergreen, I will be happy. Smiling

Example: I will cross evergreens; plant a couple hundred seeds. Keep the ones that germinate in a week to 10 days and pitch the rest. Then see what percentage are evergreens. I don't have space to do more than that.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Nov 14, 2020 9:55 AM CST
At the very least, if you keep the ones that germinate quickly and pitch the rest you will be selecting for lack of seed dormancy.

I would have said that the chapter doesn't necessarily support your theory because both the "dormant" and the evergreen species benefited from stratification.

Another possible fly in the ointment is that foliage habit isn't necessarily fixed, in other words what appears to be deciduous ("dormant") in one climate may be evergreen in another for example.
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 14, 2020 12:06 PM CST
sooby said:

Another possible fly in the ointment is that foliage habit isn't necessarily fixed, in other words what appears to be deciduous ("dormant") in one climate may be evergreen in another for example.


My experience, in my hot climate, is that true deciduous ("dormants") don't quite go dormant in the winter, which might be what shortens their life. (They are sleep-deprived.) Foliage types seem to sleep at different times of the year.

In my microclimate, when dormants are trying to go to sleep in the fall, the evergreens go through a great growth cycle in the fall because they take a rest in the heat and wake up afterwards.

Daylilies try to survive if we take them out of the climate that they are genetically suited for. But they are hit by conditions that are adverse to their genetic evolution.

I'll bet true Deciduous (dormants) go dormant in Canada. Do evergreens go through their required growth burst in the fall/winter in Canada?

My observations are not based on science, just watching what goes in my garden, in my tiny microclimate. I had a different microclimate at my last house, 30 minutes from here.
:-)
[Last edited by bobjax - Nov 14, 2020 3:52 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 16, 2020 9:00 AM CST
In general seed dormancy has several factors that affect it. A major one is the environment that the pod parent experiences. In some species that includes the environment even before the seeds start to develop. Another is the environment both the pod parent and the seeds experience while the seeds are developing. As well, those environmental effects can interact with genetic effects.

Since the environment is known to affect seed dormancy, a test in one location would require using one deciduous pollen parent and pollinating both deciduous and evergreen parents and using one evergreen pollen parent and pollinating the same deciduous and evergreen parents. All the parents would have to be grown under the same conditions (same amount of water, same amount of sun versus shade, same amount of fertilizer, etc).

Many daylilies that are registered as evergreen are deciduous in my growing conditions in Canada. The few that act as evergreens seem to simply continue growing until the temperatures drop.

I have brought a number of different deciduous daylily cultivars inside for winter for several years. They grow perfectly well during winter and after when they are put back outside. I have not found any deciduous daylily that has any problems growing without experiencing cold.

Plants depend on temperature for their growth. The growth and development of each part of a plant can have a different relationship with temperature. Those relationships are affected by three important temperatures for each plant part. They are described as cardinal temperatures. Those are the minimum temperature below which the plant part does not develop or grow, the optimum temperature at which the plant part grows and develops and the maximum (critical, ceiling) temperature above which the plant part does not grow. When temperatures are above the optimum(s) the plant part suffers heat stress and declines.

The cardinal temperatures for each plant part may be different. The cardinal temperatures are also likely to be different between cultivars. The high temperatures in locations such as Florida are likely to cause heat stress to some daylily cultivars, particularly those that have been hybridized in cooler climates further north and that may be more likely to be deciduous in nature. Heat stress can cause the decline and death of plants. Arisumi examined the effects of temperature on 'Purity' and found that 85F caused heat stress that reduced flowering while 95F abolished flowering. Both temperatures caused premature death of leaves.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 17, 2020 4:34 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 16, 2020 9:21 AM CST
'Stella de Oro' (SdO) is one of the cultivars that some of those in some warm winter climates believe does not do well because they require cold.

So I have tested it recently.

In September of 2019 I brought 11 mainly single fan crowns of SdO inside. They had not experienced cold since the spring. They have been growing inside without cold for more than a year. They have grown perfectly normally. They have now rebloomed either seven or six consecutive times. The number of fans has increased enormously and the plants have had to be subdivided many times to get them back to single fan crowns.

SdO is no different than any other deciduous daylily except that it is small, has relatively few buds and grows quickly. Nearly all (probably all) daylilies will grow and rebloom without cold in the appropriate growing conditions.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Nov 17, 2020 4:37 PM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 16, 2020 3:37 PM CST
I do not cold moist stratify daylily seeds. I leave them at room temperature, dry in envelopes for months. When I start them they germinate without any significant delays. Daylily seeds probably after-ripen when stored dry - that is, even if they were dormant they lose their dormancy as time passes.

"After-ripening, i.e. a period of usually several months of dry storage at room temperature of freshly harvested, mature seeds, is a common method used to release dormancy and to promote germination (Bewley, 1997; Finch-Savage and Leubner-Metzger, 2006; Kucera et al., 2005; Leubner-Metzger 2003)."

from http://www.seedbiology.de/afte...
Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Nov 16, 2020 4:46 PM CST
"After -ripening" is a new term to me, I always seem to learn something valuable from Maurice's posts. I don't want to have to wait several months for my seeds to break dormancy, but it is great to know that if I ever have a really bumper crop of seeds and they won't all fit in the fridge I can leave them out and plant them the next season expecting the dormancy to be broken and no need to put them in the fridge. I suppose "at room temperature" does not include being stored out in my shed...maybe inside with the air conditioning during the summer. Of course I suppose I could just store them in the shed dry during the winter and that would break dormancy also and plant them in the spring?
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Nov 16, 2020 7:34 PM CST
Seedfork said:Of course I suppose I could just store them in the shed dry during the winter and that would break dormancy also and plant them in the spring?


Unfortunately I do not have enough information to suggest whether that might work. Storing them at room temperature here means that during much of autumn, all of winter and most of spring (approximately) the furnace is on and the temperature is 71.6 F for 16 hours during the day and 66.2 F for 8 hours during the night with low relative humidity. Those temperatures are based on the thermostat settings that control the furnace. Some seeds are kept in the basement where the temperatures are about 5.4 F cooler and the relative humidity is higher.

The seeds go straight from their pods into envelopes to be stored.

Maurice
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Nov 17, 2020 10:23 AM CST
The first time I saved daylily seeds I did the same as Maurice, I kept them dry at room temperature in paper bags over the winter and started them in the spring. They pretty much all germinated within a week or two. So then I discovered people were saying daylily seeds need stratification. No they don't I thought and decided to prove it. So I collected some bee pods in fall, stratified half of the seeds (in damp media in the fridge) and started the other half without any chilling. To my surprise the stratified ones germinated right away when moved to room temp but the non-stratified ones were far more sporadic, some taking weeks to germinate.

So the differences were that the spring-started ones had been stored (room temperature) for longer and that the windowsill was warmer and sunnier in spring than when I started the others in fall. I suspected the same as Maurice, that daylilies may be in the group of plant seeds where seed dormancy wears off in dry storage.

Of course as Maurice also said, the climate here in winter means the furnace is running daily and the air is dry. A friend in Florida said she could not do room temp dry storage because it is too warm and especially humid there.

Larry, you could just try and experiment with a few seeds stored dry in the shed and see what they do.
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
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bobjax
Nov 17, 2020 2:00 PM CST
sooby said: A friend in Florida said she could not do room temp dry storage because it is too warm and especially humid there.



My home in Florida has Air Conditioning which makes the indoor temperature and humidity great for drying seeds.

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