Daylilies forum→Unusual Form

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 13, 2020 3:42 PM CST
I am having trouble telling the Unusual Forms from each other: Well, at least the "Twisted Crispate" from the "Cascade" form.
H. 'Godwin's Glory' (Elliott-S., 2014) The photo shown as an example for "Twisted Crispate" and H. 'Thin Man' (Trimmer, 2002) the photo shown as an example of the "Cascade form" look about the same to me. What am I missing, can some of you help me understand the differences?
Name: Vickie
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blue23rose
Dec 13, 2020 3:53 PM CST
I have trouble too, so I'm afraid I'm not much help.
Vickie
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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 13, 2020 6:34 PM CST

Moderator

You're right Larry, the images make it difficult to understand and adding doubles to a single flower definition makes it even more confusing! A Uf Double is a multiform, combination of 2 daylily forms and should not be included on a page defining one, single flower form. The confusion doesn't end there with double flowers, some new 2020 Double intro's are being registered as Sculpted cristate, a single flower form with cristation on the petals. Double flowers are NOT Sculpted cristate unless there is cristation on the petals. Crested petaloid stamens and segments in the 3rd floral whorl do not make a double flower a Sculpted cristate..... Grumbling There are 5 single flower forms..
Single
Unusual Form
Polymerous
Spider
Sculpted
and one double flower form
Double

Ok, now that's out of my system Smiling

Back to your original question...
Try this link that goes back to the old AHS Dictionary for examples and explanations of UF's. See if it helps explain things better.
https://web.archive.org/web/20...
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 13, 2020 8:38 PM CST
Char,
Well, I read over that a few times, and it made it very clear...this is a mess.
I read this at least four times:
"The tepals of a Cascade should fall at least to where the segments separate at the throat of the blossom." In my mind I have tried turning the bloom in almost every direction trying to envision that and all I could come up with was the the bloom should be facing straight up when trying to apply that definition?
Then I looked at "another form of Quilling, at the base of the sepals, not at the tips." I thought that looked like a spatulate, then down further I saw it was actually referred to as a reflexed Spatulate.
The other day I was reading the description of some registered plants and was amazed by the descriptions used for them, they did not seem right at all to me, and I can just imagine what the registration descriptions will look like as the hybridizers start trying to decipher these definitions to describe their plants.
I will keep on reading and looking at photos, but I wonder how accurate the descriptions of unusual form will ever be in my mind.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 14, 2020 7:05 AM CST

Moderator

I agree, it's a mess. Sad There are many factors contributing to the confusion. AHS has the responsibility to keep definitions clear and muddying the waters is a disservice to not only members but the general public.
Form should be a basic that is clear and understandable. All single flowers do not fit into one of the special Form classifications. Seriously, if someone doesn't know what Form they are registering why should I spend $$$ for your new intro? Makes me wonder what other basic characteristics you don't understand... plant habit, branching, bloom size.... If you are buying or hybridizing for a specific characteristic it's important to know at least the basics. For instance, imagine someone looking for Sculpted cristates, and purchasing from an image on the hybridizers website one of those newly registered plants registered as Sculpted cristate and when it blooms realizing it's not a Sculpted cristate. It's simply a double flower. Or worse, not realizing it's simply a double flower. This misunderstanding of Form moves down the line leading to more incorrect registrations, it confuses and makes registration and written descriptions..... meaningless.

Here's a link to the "old" guide for identifying UF's. It's a part of the registration guidelines which for some absurd reason is not linked to the registration link for hybridizers to read BEFORE they register on the "new" website. Instead it is buried in the registration link way at the bottom of the home page.
https://daylilies.org/wp-conte...
Scroll down to page 10 where it shows UF's. As the Form has evolved since these drawn descriptions, UFs can and often do, show multiple subform characteristics. Once you understand the basics of each subform characteristic you can pick them out on a cultivar displaying several.The way I learned them years ago is from hybridizers and the guidelines....

A cascade from a side view should have the upper tepal tips fall to at least the groove between segments at the top of the perianth tube, segments hanging straight downward, think waterfall, or curled inward at the tips.

Quilling is a rolling of the tepals towards the back into a tube shape. Botanical term - revolute. Opposite involute, think all the pattern daylilies that curl upward from the throat, quilling curls the opposite way. Different from Sculpted pleated which is a distinctive multiple folding of the petals.

Spatulate, the segments are shaped like a spoon, narrow in the throat and getting wider midway up the segment. I've always thought of Golliwog as the classic spatulate.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 14, 2020 7:55 AM CST
Char,
Thanks for the help.
Name: Sue
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sooby
Dec 14, 2020 9:11 AM CST
Char wrote: "...some new 2020 Double intro's are being registered as Sculpted cristate, a single flower form with cristation on the petals. Double flowers are NOT Sculpted cristate unless there is cristation on the petals. Crested petaloid stamens and segments in the 3rd floral whorl do not make a double flower a Sculpted cristate."

The Daylily Dictionary says for cristate: "A term that refers to daylily flowers with appendages of extra tissue growing from the midrib or elsewhere on the surface of the petals. Cristation can occur on single and double daylilies, but by itself, does not make a daylily double."

Is it specified somewhere that cristation doesn't count unless it is on the petals, or was this dictionary definition written before anyone thought that cristation might occur on petaloid segments so only mentions petals? If it described somewhere as only occurring on petals I could see that someone without a background in botany, which is probably a lot of people, might not realize that a petaloid stamen is not a petal.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 14, 2020 10:08 AM CST
Please keep up this conversation as I am now too confused to even find the proper wording to ask questions.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 14, 2020 11:37 AM CST
I did a search for 2020 registrations, checked the boxes double and Cristate. Pulled up 16 entries I think, but no info listed for them yet and the photos were too small (would not enlarge) for me to see much about how they looked.
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
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SunriseSide
Dec 14, 2020 11:58 AM CST
You might get a better picture on the hybridizer's site [if they are trying to sell]
Life is better at the lake.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 14, 2020 12:59 PM CST

Moderator

Sorry Larry, I never meant to confuse you more. We're getting off track of helping you understand UF's. The cristate issue is not a part of your original question, just an example I was using as to how easy it is to create confusion when terms are improperly applied and the importance of knowing and understanding how terms apply when hybridizing or purchasing daylilies. Sure, there will always be that daylily you see and must have regardless of what anyone calls it. Smiling

Sooby wrote..."or was this dictionary definition written before anyone thought that cristation might occur on petaloid segments so only mentions petals? If it described somewhere as only occurring on petals .."

The definitions for Sculpted forms were written long after doubles were recognized and defined. Single flowers with cresting are distinctive and were recognized as Sculpted cristate forms in the fall of 2010. The relationship between the 3 single flower subgroups, pleated, relief and cristate is documented and does not include double flowers.

" Sculpted: A term used to describe three-dimensional structural features involving or emanating from the throat, midrib or elsewhere on the petal surfaces. Sculpted forms belong to one of three different groups: Pleated, Cristate and Relief."
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
"Cristate: A term that refers to daylily flowers with appendages of extra tissue growing from the midrib or elsewhere on the surface of the petals."
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...

Both clearly state petal surface.

"Petal: Top three tepals of a daylily flower that is not a double.
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...

"Double: Single flowers consist of two whorls (layers) of perianth segments: the sepals and the petals. A double flower has more than one petal whorl (hose-in-hose double), or a stamen whorl that contains petaloid (petal-like) stamens (peony type double). In the peony type, carpels may also be petaloid. Individual flowers may be a combination of both double types.

Outgrowths of extra tissue from the midrib or elsewhere on a petal are not considered to constitute a double. Extra segments in the normal two perianth whorls classify a flower as polymerous rather than double."
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...

"Unusual Form: A more recent registration class based on form, its definition states: The Unusual Form class is based exclusively on form, not on color or color patterns. The flower must have distinctive petal or sepal shapes on all three petals or all three sepals. It includes three basic forms: crispate, cascade and spatulate.

The crispate form is further defined below. Ideally, there should be minimal overlap with a v-shaped space between 3 or more floral segments."

This is a registered Double UF. Is it because it displays characteristics of both a double flower and the single flower petals/sepal characterisitcs of a UF? Or because the third whorl segments are UF? It's because it shows both, the petal and sepal characteristics of a single flower UF and changes to the third whorl making it a double flower.

Following the incorrect assumption that third whorl characteristics include the defined petal/sepal characteristics of a single flower.... this would be a Double, Unusual and Sculpted form? It's not a Double, UF and Sculpted form....it's a Double.


I do understand that people might not have a botanical background and know the difference between a single flower and double flower. That's why having clear definitions is important and education, both primary responsibilities of AHS. That said, you can't force people to ask questions, check definitions or even read a guideline before registering if they can find it. Shrug!
Name: Sue
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sooby
Dec 14, 2020 1:26 PM CST
"Both clearly state petal surface"

Agreed, but my point was whether this wording was deliberately intended to exclude other surfaces or just mentioned petals because that was all that was expected to show cristation at the time the definition was written.

My comment about not knowing the difference between a petal and a petaloid stamen referred to people possibly thinking a petaloid stamen is a petal and therefore can have cristation based on the definition. It wasn't referring to the difference between a single and a double.
[Last edited by sooby - Dec 14, 2020 1:31 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 14, 2020 4:56 PM CST
So glad we did get "off track", the broader discussion actually helped me to get a clearer picture of the definitions.
I wish I could say that looking at 'Sebastian on Steroids' I can clearly see what you are talking about, but my eyes only see is a deformed mass of daylily bloom. Maybe in person if I could feel and pry a bit I could see it being a Double UF. I guess a picture is not always worth a thousand words!
That is all I will comment on until I can read thru all this a few dozen more times.
Thanks!
[Last edited by Seedfork - Dec 14, 2020 4:57 PM (+)]
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Name: Roger & Karen
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Diggerofdirt
Dec 14, 2020 5:30 PM CST
Confused
And i thought it was simple. A double the extra is growing on the stamens and pistal and a sculpted form had extra tissue on the petals and sepals.
Boy i was wrong. Confused
Every home needs a daylily, and every daylily needs a home.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 14, 2020 6:06 PM CST
Getting off track again: A poly is not a double, if only the top three tepals of a daylily that is not a double are called petals, what are the other extra top sepals called on a poly? I know that sounds like a riddle, but I suppose to me it is.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Dec 16, 2020 12:29 PM (+)]
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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 14, 2020 6:58 PM CST

Moderator

Sooby said..."Agreed, but my point was whether this wording was deliberately intended to exclude other surfaces or just mentioned petals because that was all that was expected to show cristation at the time the definition was written."

Without going back to read the discussions from 11 years ago when I worked with SSC on the definitions I believe there were several reasons for using petal surface. One was the exclusion of double flowers in the single flower Sculpted classification. Another was excluding edge characteristics. The use of "petal" followed the terminology used in other single flower form definitions.
As a single flower form the only other placement to include for cristation would be sepals. To include sepals in the Sculpted definition it would need to be seen that pleating, relief or cristation can occur on only the sepals. Otherwise the sculpted characteristic is always on the petal and occasionally on the sepals.

"Extra segments in the normal two perianth whorls classify a flower as polymerous rather than double."
Is this what you are referring to Larry? A poly has sepals and petals.
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 14, 2020 8:53 PM CST
"Petal: Top three tepals of a daylily flower that is not a double.
https://daylilies.org/daylily-...

Polymerous is an adjective used to designate a daylily with more than the normal number of segments in each floral whorl, i.e., more than the normal three sepals (usually four or five) in the outer whorl and more than three petals (usually the same number as sepals) in the inner whorl.

This is what I am referring to: I am assuming that in this case the "Top: and the "Inner whorl" are the same?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 14, 2020 9:44 PM CST
Char said:
Without going back to read the discussions from 11 years ago when I worked with SSC on the definitions I believe there were several reasons for using petal surface. One was the exclusion of double flowers in the single flower Sculpted classification. Another was excluding edge characteristics. The use of "petal" followed the terminology used in other single flower form definitions.
As a single flower form the only other placement to include for cristation would be sepals. To include sepals in the Sculpted definition it would need to be seen that pleating, relief or cristation can occur on only the sepals. Otherwise the sculpted characteristic is always on the petal and occasionally on the sepals.


Well, I guess my failing to understand a single sentence in the above paragraph proves I am not understanding this.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 14, 2020 10:25 PM CST
Diggerofdirt said: Confused
And i thought it was simple. A double the extra is growing on the stamens and pistal and a sculpted form had extra tissue on the petals and sepals.
Boy i was wrong. Confused

So I went back and read over everything again, and this simplistic statement by Diggerofdirt was pretty much the conclusion I came to as a general guideline.
How far off is this general statement? Maybe filling in with some particulars of why it is not totally correct will help us understand better.
Name: Sue
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sooby
Dec 15, 2020 6:28 AM CST
Char, going back to what you said earlier, and which is what I'm querying "Sculpted cristate, a single flower form with cristation on the petals. Double flowers are NOT Sculpted cristate unless there is cristation on the petals. Crested petaloid stamens and segments in the 3rd floral whorl do not make a double flower a Sculpted cristate."

This implied to me that a double daylily with cristation on the petals can be considered sculpted cristate, but double flowers with cristation only on petaloid tissue but not the petals is excluded. Am I misinterpreting?

I thought the exclusion of double flowers was in the sense that cristation on the petals of a single flower does not classify the flower a double, which is what had happened sometimes in the past.

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