Daylilies forum→Unusual Form

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 15, 2020 7:56 AM CST
Well, I have gone back looked up the meaning of Cristate, Sculpted, Double, Single, Stamen, Pistil, Carpels, tepals, sepals, petals, whorls ,petaloid, polymerous, and more. I have read through this tread many times so if nothing else, I think it proves form is going to be one of the hardest things to learn about in trying to become a garden judge. I thought my hardest section was going to be on the awards programs. But I do find this much more interesting than the awards programs.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 15, 2020 10:34 AM CST

Moderator

Correct, a daylily would need to have cristation on the 2nd whorl petals (single flower characteristic) AND be a double flower to be registered as both Sculpted cristate and Double. Similar to registration for UF and Double. The flowers have to show the UF characteristics of the single flower form and the change in whorl structure to a double flower. With no single flower UF characteristic just because petaloid stamens pinch or twist does not make the flower a UF Double.
Long before the work I did with SSC getting single flower Sculpted recognized as a Form, it was determined and documented that single flowers with cresting were not double flowers, although a few were incorrectly registered that way.
Single flowers with cresting (Sculpted cristate) are not double flowers (Double forms) and double flowers with cresting are not single flower Sculpted cristates.


Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 15, 2020 12:35 PM CST
Char said:Correct, a daylily would need to have cristation on the 2nd whorl petals (single flower characteristic) AND be a double flower to be registered as both Sculpted cristate and Double.


From the (probable) biology of the flower in daylilies I think that needs to be changed. For plants in general there are two ideas about how petals evolved. One is that they evolved from sepals and the other is that they evolved from stamens. I think that the evidence from doubles in daylilies strongly suggests that as far as daylilies are concerned petals evolved from stamens (probably) via petaloid stamens.

As cristation can appear on petals it most likely can also appear on petaloid stamens and therefore it can most likely appear on doubles. Whether its appearance on petaloid stamens is necessarily highly correlated with its appearance on the petals of the same flower should not influence whether the flower is cristate or not. So, in my opinion, a daylily flower should be able to be classified as being double and being cristate even if the cristation is only present on the petaloids.

Whether cristation can occur on the sepals is another question. But if it ever does then I think that the flower should be classifiable as being cristate even if there is no cristation on its petals.

I think that cristation should be considered as a characteristic similar to colour. For example sepals can be one colour (say red) and the petals can be a different colour, OR both the petals and the sepals can be the same colour (say red). It should be possible for sepals to be cristate and the petals not be cristate or for the petals to be cristate and the sepals not be or both sepals and petals be cristate or neither petals nor sepals be cristate. It should also be possible for the petaloid stamens (of a hose-in-hose or a petaloid double) to be cristate or to not be cristate.

Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 15, 2020 1:17 PM CST
I am counting on others to reply back, I don't know enough to agree or argue the point. But to me that would certainly simplify things, but it might complicate things in a way I don't understand.
Thanks for your input Maurice.
Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Dec 16, 2020 6:45 AM CST

Moderator

I'm really not interested in your (probable) (probably) opinion. It has nothing to do with the facts of what Sue and I were discussing.

Sculpted, including Sculpted cristate, is recognized and defined for registration as a single flower form, the same as the other 3 single flower forms Spider, UF and Polymerous. If Double folks want multi form, Sculpted cristate AND Double, they need to hydbridize for it like they do with the other recognized and defined single flower forms not by incorrectly registering their daylilies as single flowers.

This still does not answer the question of what happened to the official Unusual Form definition in the AHS Dictionary and why what's there has been turned into some confusing warped advertisement for multiform, Uf and Double, exhibitions. Maybe the only copy of the official UF definition is the one I found buried in the dusty back room pages of the new website.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 16, 2020 8:51 AM CST
I was wondering if Cristation could occur on the sepals, I had just assumed that it would. Glad that was brought up, maybe a goal to hybridize for?
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 16, 2020 9:22 AM CST
I guess this brings me back to my questions: If a petal is one of the top "Three" tepals on a flower that is not a double, then if a polymerous flower is not a double but has cristation on a fourth or fifth tepal? The actual number three in the definition of petals to me seems odd to me, so I know it seems obvious that an extra "petal" would be a petal. So either the number 3, or the word top, is throwing me off.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 16, 2020 12:14 PM CST
@Seedfork

I have bolded the relevant terms in the quotes.
The daylily dictionary indicates " A double flower has more than one petal whorl (hose-in-hose double)"
it also indicates "Polymerous is an adjective used to designate a daylily with more than the normal number of segments in each floral whorl, i.e., more than the normal three sepals (usually four or five) in the outer whorl and more than three petals (usually the same number as sepals) in the inner whorl. Polymerous daylilies have the extra sepals and petals evenly spaced in their respective whorls, "
For cristate the daylily dictionary indicates "A form of sculpting that refers to appendages of extra petal tissue growing from the midrib or elsewhere on the surface of the petals."

The daylily dictionary tends to be correct biologically; registration information not so much. All the registration information needs to be examined in detail and changed to conform to accepted biology.

Cresting on the extra petals or petaloids of a double flower or on the extra petals of a polymerous flower should be all that is required to describe a daylily cultivar as crested.
Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Dec 16, 2020 12:51 PM CST
I guess I am just being dense.
Petal: by the definition on the AHS site.
Definition of a Petal according to the AHS site: "Top three tepals of a daylily flower that is not a double".
I know a double also has petals, I know a Polymerous flower has petals...What I am trying to say is that the definition of a Petal as being the top 3 sepals of a flower not a double just looks wrong to me. When a Polymerous flower is not a double and has more than 3 sepals that are also referred to as petals, even though there are more than three.
Now that just looks logical to me, but either I am totally misreading that definition of a petal, or it needs to be rewritten. Maybe the normal single form daylily is limited to three petals (but that should not be part of the definition is all I am trying to say.
What is the scientific definition of a Petal? Maybe it doesn't matter in relation to daylilies? I don't understand that.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 16, 2020 1:48 PM CST
It seems as if the typical definitions involving petals are problematic.
Below are some examples from published botany dictionaries and glossaries. They are not in quotes as I have edited them to remove irrelevant text that the optical character recognition software did not convert adequately, etc.
==
Petal. An individual segment or member of the corolla, usually colored or white
Corolla. The collective name for all of the petals of a flower; the inner perianth whorl.
Double. Having a larger number of petals than usual.
==
PETAL,. One of the foliaceous expansions constituting the subordinate parts of the floral whorl, termed the corolla,
COROLLA, the floral whorl next in succession within the calyx. It is composed of subordinate parts termed petals, which are either free, or more or less united together into a tube, in which case the corolla is termed monopetalous. It is generally more highly coloured than the calyx, but in many plants it is entirely wanting, and then the calyx frequently assumes the more usual aspect of the corolla.
DOUBLE, when applied to the entire flower, it signifies that monstrous condition in which the parts of the inner floral whorls, the stamens and carpels, become converted to petals. Applied to the calyx or corolla separately, it refers to certain examples in which these organs appear to consist of more than the usual or normal number of subordinate parts, and thus seem as if they were double.
====
corolla, the second whorl of floral organs, inside or above the calyx and outside the stamens, consisting of free petals or of a joined tube and petal lobes
petal, a single, usually free, unit of a completely divided corolla or second floral whorl (keel petals in many papilionoid legumes are partially fused/united along their lower margins)
===
corolla the inner series of floral envelopes consisting either of connate or distinct petals
double (flowers) when the number of petals is increased at the expense of other organs, especially the stamens.
petal one of the separate members of the corolla.
==

I suspect that the definition in the daylily dictionary for petal is an attempt to not involve the term corolla in the definition. The typical definitions of petal involve corolla and of corolla involve petal - somewhat circular.

As for a single scientific definition of a petal - it seems as if that is difficult - this is a quote from one research paper,
"Our data illustrate that, without a comparative perspective, a strict definition of petal identity, which is not possible from a morphological point of view, is probably not maintainable from a molecular point of view, not even in core eudicots."
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Dec 16, 2020 3:09 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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Seedfork
Dec 16, 2020 1:56 PM CST
Maurice,
Gosh, thanks for that! I feel so much better now. I thought maybe I had lost all sense of comprehension there for a while. I can accept the fact there are poor definitions of a word, just a long as I realize it is not just my brain being belligerent.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Dec 16, 2020 2:46 PM CST
"I suspect that the definition in the daylily dictionary for petal is an attempt to not involve the term corolla in the definition. The typical definitions of petal involve corolla and of corolla involve petal - somewhat circular."

Maybe - because corolla is more typically used when there is a separate, different (e.g. green) calyx. In daylilies the term perianth is used, because the parts are all similar in appearance. Perianth and perianth segments are defined in the Daylily Dictionary, and in the latter case linked to from the petal definition.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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Seedfork
Dec 16, 2020 3:30 PM CST
Sue,
Off topic, but this photo is a little confusing to me. The photo is by you, not sure about the captions on the photo.
I looked up the word Carpel in the daylily dictionary, and the captions under the photo look correct, but the label showing the word "style" has me confused. It is probably correct, but it looks confusing to me. The caption was talking about a compound pistil. Is that how it was meant to be?
Sorry, I now see it was me, not the photo and captions that was confused. I was looking at the photo incorrectly.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Dec 16, 2020 3:47 PM (+)]
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Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Forum moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Region: Vermont
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Char
Dec 17, 2020 7:47 AM CST

Moderator

A lot of shoveling to do this morning...once I get the snow shovel out of the barn. Over a foot and it's still coming down hard.

Floral whorl formation is what separates a single flower from a double flower.

A single flower has 4 floral whorls, sepal, petal, stamen and pistil.
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/d09e19
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/c75408 Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/272835

A double flower has 4 or more whorls with changes to the normal floral organs and/or whorl structure occurring after the petals in the 2nd whorl. In daylilies there are 2 types of double flower, petaloid stamen (peony) and hose-in-hose with more than one layer of petals.
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/d26445 Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/1b9521
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/62471e Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/8ed0e9
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/2bcbe2 Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/b2c377

Single flower Forms in daylilies have 4 whorls sepal, petal, stamen and pistil.
Spider Form
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/26802e Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/d842ec

Unusual Form with 3 subforms, crispate, cascade and spatulate
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/f99f27 Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/540292 Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/9d0c47
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/d842ec

Polymerous, a single flower form with more than the normal floral organs in each of the 4 floral whorls, 4 or more sepals, 4 or more petals, 8 or more stamens - 1 for each sepal and petal and 4 or more styles in the pistil.
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/bd01af Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/f6b538
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/3abe61

Sculpted and the 3 subforms, pleated, relief and cristate are single flower Forms with structural changes to the petals in the 2nd whorl.
Pleated
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/902471 Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/9509eb
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/0bdaec

Relief
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/da5290 Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/9509eb
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/fb593e

Cristate
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/9f39c4 Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/7e698b
Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/9509eb Thumb of 2020-12-17/Char/abc205

While cristation(cresting) can occur on both a single or a double flower it does not make a single flower a double flower... OR a double flower a single flower.



Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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Seedfork
Dec 17, 2020 8:21 AM CST
Doesn't the polymerous bloom only have one style with an increased number of carpels? A fused bloom has two styles?
Love the photos and explanations.
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
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SunriseSide
Dec 17, 2020 11:34 AM CST
2 pistils in the fused ones I've seen, Larry.
Life is better at the lake.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Dec 17, 2020 11:40 AM CST
Yes, two pistils (the style is just the middle section of the pistil) so the way I see it two pistils=two styles.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Dec 17, 2020 1:05 PM CST
I decided to look though my on list of registered plants and practice trying to describe the Bloom Form: I quickly realized that I need to start taking side views of my blooms, full face on photos are not much use to determine the Crispate form.
I also noticed that some hybridizers took the easy way out and just listed them as Unusual Form Crispate and did not distinguish which type of crispate.
Twisted Crispate, and Cascade still give me problems when trying to ID them.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Dec 17, 2020 1:21 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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Seedfork
Dec 20, 2020 1:10 PM CST
I was searching and looking and getting really confused by the photos I saw registered as 'Spatulate', most of them I could not tell what would have deserved such a discription.
To me this one looks like a pretty good example of a 'Spatulate' bloom.

I definitely need some hands on training on form terms and matching them with actual blooms.
Just looking at the photos, it seems the sepals seem to show the Spatulate feature more often than the petals, but those seem to be very similar to the pinched and quilled forms to me.

[Last edited by Seedfork - Dec 20, 2020 2:16 PM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Dec 20, 2020 6:18 PM CST
I was told one of the main benefits of taking the garden judges courses was that it would give you a better understanding and greater knowledge of the plants we grow in our own gardens. I must admit that I am taking a much closer look at the blooms now while trying to learn about all the different forms. I see it will take a lot of practice and guidance before I can get this all down correctly.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Dec 22, 2020 7:25 AM (+)]
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