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Jun 3, 2010 9:24 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Alfred aka Beach Bum
Jersey Shore, NJ
I know very well that some rose bushes can be genetically mutated to produce a 'sport' climber. Or any rose bushes with tall or long canes especially DA roses can be trained as a climber

In DA's web site they sell bare roots of some roses (the same rose) in both shrub/bush or climber form.
So my question is - are these so called 'climbers' sports of the shrub/bush variety? Or it is just how they present or shape/prune the canes on the bare root?
Most of their so called climbers are labeled to 8-10 feet. I understand in warm areas, the same rose variety in shrub/bush form can grow as tall as 8-10 feet as well. So what is really the difference between the two bare roots? I can't find an explanation in their site.

Thanks!
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Jun 4, 2010 2:43 AM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
This is a very good question and I think you should click on "Contact us" on their website and ask them. Helpmefind.com doesn't list two separate varieties of Falstaff, for instance, or Crown Princess Margareta and the others. It just lists the shrubs, although it does mention the climbing habit of the shrub in some cases. So they probably can't be sports, because sports would get a separate HMF listing.

I suspect they're selling just one variety of the rose, but they're listing it under shrubs and climbers and offering different pruning advice for each category.
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Jun 4, 2010 12:56 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Alfred aka Beach Bum
Jersey Shore, NJ
Zuzu - Thank you for your suggestion. I suspected they were the same variety as well and just listed as climber. But there was one rose (forgot which one), they were out of the bareroot in shrub form, but is available as a bareroot in climber form. The name of the rose was followed with the word 'climber'.

I will try to contact them and ask for an explanation.
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Jun 4, 2010 2:13 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
With most HT's the climbing version is a sport, as you suggest.

I believe you will find that David Austin discovered some time ago that certain of his roses can grow really big here in the US compared to the British Isles. And he decided to create a line of climbers by simply training the same roses, using a smaller number of canes than would be used for a shrub. I've read a lot about DA roses, and nowhere is it suggested that the roses marketed as climbers are sports of the originals.

Of course, some of his climbers such as Generous Gardener, Malvern Hills, etc. are actually real climbers. Abe Darby, on the other hand, is on the cusp. One parent is a climber, the other is a big shrub. It can reasonably be treated either way.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
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Jun 4, 2010 4:12 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Are you sure about The Generous Gardener, Steve? My Abraham Darby grows as a climber, and Malvern Hills would be impossible to confine to shrub size, but The Generous Gardener is quite short, even in California.
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Jun 4, 2010 5:46 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
So much for book knowledge. Austin calls GG "Perhaps our most important climber ... growing to 12 ft or more" (The English Roses p.232). I planted it this spring in a spot where I hope for it to grow well as a climber. I guess we'll see. I also expected it to be white, but the ref. above depicts it as pale pink.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
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Jun 4, 2010 6:39 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Mine is such a pale pink that it might as well be white. The photo below is The Generous Gardener as it looks in my garden.

I wonder if he might have hybridized more than one. I remember seeing something about David Austin florist roses a couple of years ago, and one was named Cymbeline (AUSglade), but it bore little resemblance to his other Cymbeline (AUSleen). I was a little annoyed to see that. I'm halfway ready to forgive Meilland and Kordes for using the same names over and over because they're French and German and the English names might be fairly meaningless to them, but David Austin doesn't have that excuse.


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Jun 4, 2010 6:41 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
Here's a link to those florist roses:

http://www.davidaustinroses.co...
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Jun 4, 2010 6:48 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Region: Ukraine Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses Clematis
Irises Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier Garden Sages Plant Database Moderator Garden Ideas: Master Level
I couldn't find any photos of Cymbeline on the Austin site, but here's a photo someone posted on GW. You can see it's deep pink and is even described as "deep pink."

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/f...

This is the Cymbeline I've been growing in my garden for years:


Thumb of 2010-06-05/zuzu/19e19d
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Jun 4, 2010 9:20 PM CST
Name: Steve
Prescott, AZ (Zone 7b)
Irises Lilies Roses Region: Southwest Gardening
You are right. The two Cymbeline roses are very different. And I share your annoyance with name recycling. Austin should have known that roses from the cut flower trade - if they are good - frequently find their way into gardens.

I love the way your GG displays its stamens when the flower is open.
When you dance with nature, try not to step on her toes.
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Jun 4, 2010 9:53 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Alfred aka Beach Bum
Jersey Shore, NJ
Thanks for the explanation Steve! It now makes sense.

I'm planning on expanding the bed wider towards the back and add maybe 4 or so climbers on trellises just tall enough to add some vertical interest. Maybe add some clematis as well.
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