Daylilies forum→H.citrina vs. `Baroni'

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Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Feb 21, 2021 4:38 PM CST
In a thread about nocturnal daylilies, I remarked that,
"My species H. Citrina "Baroni" actually opens in the evening and is done by the next morning. It's very fragrant."

@sooby asked,
"Is that the species Hemerocallis citrina or the cultivar called 'Baroni' which is a cross of two species? "

My reply:
Sue-
It was sold to me as "Baroni" - I have no reason to think it otherwise - Tom is reliable and takes care of you if there are any issues. He is great to work with.
http://gracegardens.com/specie...

(post edited to clarify the start of this now separated out thread about the species H citrina and the hybrid cultivar 'Baroni')
[Last edited by robinjoy - Feb 23, 2021 2:46 PM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
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sooby
Feb 21, 2021 5:11 PM CST
Wendy, in the database there are two daylilies:

Hemerocallis citrina
Daylily (Hemerocallis citrina)

'Baroni' (H. thunbergii x H. citrina)
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Baroni')

Here is an example of a botany reference where the author of the name is tacked on to the species name as is typical in scientific writing:

http://www.efloras.org/florata...

That's why I'm thinking somewhere along the line the author's name may have been mistaken for a cultivar name even though it doesn't have the single (not double) quotes that indicate a valid name. If you look at the listing you gave, they also seem to have done the same thing with H. dumortieri, Morren has been tacked on as if it is a cultivar name but it's the author of the name, shown here:

http://www.efloras.org/florata...

There is no daylily called 'Morren'.

So I suspect what you have is Hemerocallis citrina and not the hybrid cultivar 'Baroni'.





Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Feb 22, 2021 7:40 AM CST
I did a search for 'citrina' in the database here and there are two results with Baroni in 1897. The cultivar shows Baroni as the hybridizer and h. citrina shows Baroni as "discovered by". The cultivar 'Citrina' does not have any pictures, but the species h. citrina does. The information about these two is also similar.


Daylily (Hemerocallis citrina)

However, in the AHS database there is only one listed. 'Citrina' (Baroni, 1897), so I am confused. Does the AHS database not list species daylilies?
https://www.daylilies.org/Dayl...

The other thing I am wondering is if they could possibly be the same. Just throwing this question out: Why would Baronia register a cultivar with the same name as the species if they are different? And why would they both have the same year?

If someone could explain the difference between these two (if they are different) I would appreciate it. I received h. citrina in a trade. I don't have any pictures to share of it yet. Since it is a nocturnal (and the only one that I think I have), I am hoping to post a picture of it this year.



Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
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blue23rose
Feb 22, 2021 7:45 AM CST
Nocturnal is listed as a "plant trait" in the "search by characteristics" part of the database here, so you can search that way. I was surprised to see that there are 3,516 results that show nocturnal blooming daylilies in this database. I tried to do a search in the "description keywords" in the advanced search on the AHS database, but got no results.

I was surprised to see that 'Apple Tart' is listed as a nocturnal in the search here and am wondering if that is an error, because it has always bloomed during the day for me and it is not listed as nocturnal in the AHS database.

Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Feb 22, 2021 7:54 AM CST
@blue23rose there shouldn't be two "citrina" in the NGA database, if you click on the 'Citrina' one, it goes to the species page in the AHS database. The AHS database system automatically and incorrectly converts a species epithet into a cultivar name with a capital initial letter and single quotes. Species names don't come under AHS jurisdiction, they come under the plant (botanical code of nomenclature whereas AHS is for cultivars only) but when the AHS database data entry was done initially, some were included because they were in the first check list as known daylilies. Professor Baroni definitely wasn't the hybridizer, he discovered and named the plant. I'll post in the NGA database forum about the duplication, good catch! Here's the post:
The thread "Hemerocallis citrina" in Plant Database forum


Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Feb 22, 2021 8:20 AM CST
Here's a description of the naming history of Hemerocallis citrina clipped from the American Horticultural Magazine of Spring 1968 (it's actually all about daylilies and downloadable as a PDF):

Thumb of 2021-02-22/sooby/ff89e8

Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Feb 22, 2021 9:10 AM CST
Sue and Vicki-

I couldn't see any difference in the descriptions to distinguish between these two - which as I now understand what you are saying, Sue, may actually be a mistake in the database. I wrote both down in my info about this plant, but stuck with what I was told it was.

So there is no such thing as a "baroni" but only the species H citrina?

It is the only nocturnal I have that is done by morning, but it is lovely in the evening.

Brings up an interesting dilemma about collecting daylilies - we always assume we have what we are told we have unless it looks substantially different. I know I have seen occasional clumps of Stella that have a slightly different color - I suspect started from a self-pollination where the pod matured and dropped seed.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Feb 22, 2021 9:33 AM CST
robinjoy said:Sue and Vicki-

So there is no such thing as a "baroni" but only the species H citrina?


There is a cultivar 'Baroni' which is a cross of H. thunbergii and H. citrina. There is a picture in the AHS database, which does not look like the picture in the NGA database under that name. I suspect the one in the NGA database may actually be H. citrina, the petals look more narrow than the AHS pic:

https://www.daylilies.org/Dayl...

From the American Horticultural Magazine I mentioned above, here's the listing of 'Baroni' as a cultivar:

Thumb of 2021-02-22/sooby/793397
Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Feb 22, 2021 9:42 AM CST
So Sue - which do you suspect is what I have? How would I decide?
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Feb 22, 2021 10:00 AM CST
robinjoy said:So Sue - which do you suspect is what I have? How would I decide?


I don't know about 'Baroni' but H. citrina has black tipped buds and the flower segments look narrower than the picture of 'Baroni'. Also the height is different, H. citrina is taller than 'Baroni' which has more of the height of its other parent according to the database info. Here's a pic of my H. citrina, you can probably see the black-tipped buds if you enlarge it. The height difference is significant.

Thumb of 2021-02-22/sooby/4f59c7

But the Grace Gardens picture labeled Hemerocallis citrina looks to have wider segments than most pictures, including mine, of Hemerocallis citrina. How tall would you say yours is, and do you have a photo?
Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Feb 22, 2021 10:47 AM CST
Yes Sue- I am looking at photos (unfortunately I still haven't figured out how to get them from my phone to the computer) - I can see the black-tipped buds in my picture - plant was in its first year, and wasn't that tall (maybe 36" although I didn't measure it) - segments of mine look similar to yours

thanks for the AHortS spring 68 ref - what a wonderful resource! I had not seen that.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Feb 22, 2021 11:08 AM CST
I think that the cultivar 'Baroni' is described as having pink at the base of the leaves would be a could tip off as to which plant is which. I have seen it referred to as "Pink Socks" or "Purple Socks" if is more purple tinted.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Feb 22, 2021 12:07 PM CST
Seedfork said:I think that the cultivar 'Baroni' is described as having pink at the base of the leaves would be a could tip off as to which plant is which. I have seen it referred to as "Pink Socks" or "Purple Socks" if is more purple tinted.


Hemerocallis citrina also has the pink socks, so I think the biggest difference between the two may be height. I looked into this years ago when it came up somewhere else and just managed to unearth a couple of articles I'd kept in my files about the early hybridizing in Europe and H. citrina. It looks to me as though 'Baroni' may have been misinterpreted by some to be an "improved" Hemerocallis citrina even though it is a hybrid with H. thunbergii. I did notice an apparent misinterpretation also of Hemerocallis citrina Baroni as Baroni being a cultivar name whereas in the original context Baroni was intended to indicate the author of the name.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Feb 22, 2021 12:43 PM CST
Just to follow up, the duplicate NGA database entry for Hemerocallis citrina but written as a cultivar name 'Citrina' has now been deleted.

Also I found the original description by the hybridizer, Sprenger, for his hybrid 'Baroni' in the Gardener's Chronicle, 1903. It's a bit fuzzy, being from an old document:

Thumb of 2021-02-22/sooby/c05124
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Feb 22, 2021 9:14 PM CST
Thank you so much, Sue!
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Feb 23, 2021 9:01 AM CST
What a wealth of information Sue! Thanks so much! Where were you able to access that 1903 Gardeners Chronicle?

If height is the only distinguishing characteristic, and I go by the Grace Gardens 40" height deesciption, that would indicate it is the species.

Mine was closer to 36" in its first year, and it's in partial shade. Perhaps it is the cultivar 'Baroni', but all things considered, more likely the species. Would you agree?

I suspect some of the early cultivars are so similar it is hard to distinguish them.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Feb 23, 2021 9:53 AM CST
robinjoy said:What a wealth of information Sue! Thanks so much! Where were you able to access that 1903 Gardeners Chronicle?


It's online here:

https://www.biodiversitylibrar...

Maybe wait and see how tall your plant is this year? If it is the species it could be up to about 4 feet.
Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Feb 23, 2021 10:33 AM CST
What a fascinating article! (v34 p122)

I was intrigued by Baroni's comment that the species all appeared to be infertile at first, but his patience eventually paid off.

"When the plants first came here all were completely sterile, and I lost all hope of fertilising and hybridizing them. But little by little some of them showed the lost quality of seed-bearing, and finally some new importations from Central China made it an absolute certainty that iut would be possible not only to grow seeds but also to hybridize the plants, and now the result is very promising, and we have some fine hybrids."

Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Feb 23, 2021 10:58 AM CST
Sue-
I imagine the species H. citrina is commonly found. How likely is it that the cultivar 'Baroni' is actually being grown now? So many of the early hybrids are lost.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4a)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Feb 23, 2021 11:47 AM CST
robinjoy said:Sue-
I imagine the species H. citrina is commonly found. How likely is it that the cultivar 'Baroni' is actually being grown now? So many of the early hybrids are lost.


I really don't know, there are people selling seeds online supposedly from H. citrina, whether they really are selfed or not, or really from H. citrina I have no idea. I would imagine since you got it from a specialist daylily grower that the plant you have was likely produced vegetatively.

But from a Daylily Journal in 1992, in a series on the species by John Schabell, there's a quote from Kitchingman in England ".........'Baroni' become more popular and this has led to the species being abandoned.....I have both the species and 'Baroni' and I must admit to preferring the original species."

Perhaps one would need to find a source of what is known to be the hybrid 'Baroni' and grow it side by side. I have seen people talk about a "Hemerocallis citrina Baroni clone", but I don't know whether what they are referring to is the hybrid cultivar 'Baroni' without realizing it is a hybrid, or whether they are suggesting the H. citrina they have is a clone of the original described by Baroni.

Whether it would be possible to ever really sort this out I don't know!



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