Daylilies forum→Another Runaway Auction!

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Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Birds The WITWIT Badge Region: United States of America Roses
Irises Cat Lover Daylilies Region: California Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Betja
Apr 11, 2021 1:08 AM CST
Wow -- check out Runningfox's ZOLLO OMEGA on the Lily Auction -- closes 5:45 p.m. (Pacific Time) Sunday. Steve, I really hope you win it! Crossing Fingers! It's amazing!!!

Betty
[Last edited by Betja - Apr 11, 2021 1:15 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #2474025 (1)
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 11, 2021 6:40 AM CST
It does amaze me, actually it bewilders me why a single fan like that would bring so much! The stats certainly don't give any clue as to why it is so expensive. But reading further down it appears that it must be a fantastic pod and pollen parent. I think so often we just look at a bloom and shake our heads and say "No Way !", But without knowing what hybridizers see it a plant it looks foolish on the surface when we see such high prices being paid.
What amazes me even more with this particular sale is what the seller says about the SINGLE FAN the winner will receive: "He will be dug WHEN the fan is a NICE size..and no sooner. You will get fan off my mature clump. When dividing from clumps you may get fans with roots on one side of the plant."
Then he continues by saying he will continue to sell one or two fans a year, but because the cultivar is so slow to multiply that he cannot supply the demand for the plant, and that he has a southern grower now trying to grow it and speed up production. So I am not saying anyone should not buy the plant, it is just that I would love to know why? What is it they see that most of us don't.
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
Clematis Lilies Birds Garden Art Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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floota
Apr 11, 2021 7:00 AM CST
This would be a dream parent for a hybridizer who is working on Tet. Bitones with fancy edges/teeth who maybe has in mind one or more plants that he or she wants to cross with it. They are paying for breeding value and fertility, not necessarily a great garden plant. In time, this may also prove to be a good garden plant, it it will be years before this will be widely grown enough to determine that.
Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Apr 11, 2021 8:41 AM CST
I haven't seen anywhere but am curious what the top $$$ plants on the DA have been and what they went for
Name: Betty
Bakersfield, CA
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Birds The WITWIT Badge Region: United States of America Roses
Irises Cat Lover Daylilies Region: California Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Betja
Apr 11, 2021 9:37 AM CST
Well said, Julie! Thumbs up

I remember back several years ago when an occasional daylily went for over $1,500, and recently there have been a few of the broken/striped new intros that have sold for huge prices too -- mostly purchased by hybridizers plus an occasional seller on the Lily Auction like Yenok_daylilies who wants to resell fans for huge prices. He currently lists two SF's of LAURELWOOD'S WAVE CANYON for $499 each, with no takers so far...

Betty
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
Clematis Lilies Birds Garden Art Butterflies Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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floota
Apr 11, 2021 9:42 AM CST
Some of Angie Ridder's broken color plants went for ungodly amounts over the past couple of years. (Richard J. Howard and those prefixed Laurelwood) I remember being so thrilled when Angie sold me a fan of Richard J. Howard for a much more reasonable amount than people had bid it up on the LA. The same thing happened to me a few years ago . I will NOT sell SF of plants, so I listed A couple of DF of Mayor of Munchkinland for sale, I think starting at $79 maybe. It was absolutely insanity the way people bid it up sky high. . I was then so paranoid about shipping a plant that had sold for so much w/o insuring it for what it had sold for. The good part was that my sister and I were flying to New Mexico for a week and a "sister trip". I made enough to pay for car rental and gas for the entire trip!! I kept saying, two little pieces of plant paid for this.
[Last edited by floota - Apr 11, 2021 9:46 AM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 11, 2021 9:45 AM CST
Well, I am hoping for Ahead to win this plant and I would love for him to post here why he felt the plant was worth so much to him, mostly what he sees in this plant that dozens of other other plants out there don't have. I know he must have some specific crosses in mind and some fantastic goals he will be working toward.
I did read that correctly that the seller is hoping to bloom the first seedlings from this plant this year? I was thinking that maybe Steve had seen some of the seedlings and based his pricing on those, but I guess not if the first seedlings will bloom this year.
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Deryll
Apr 11, 2021 10:00 AM CST
I'll be the first to admit that I have shelled out some high prices for a few plants that I wanted very badly, but nothing to that extent.
I really just started with toothy plants a couple years ago, and my main objection in the beginning was that most of them came
out of Bass Gibson, and most were that smaller size. I had some awesome toothy seedlings last year, but I'm afraid that those
under 6.5" would be on the pile very quickly.
[Last edited by Deryll - Apr 12, 2021 5:09 PM (+)]
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Name: Steve Todd
Illinois (Zone 5b)
Region: Illinois Plant and/or Seed Trader Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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Ahead
Apr 11, 2021 9:31 PM CST
My ears are burning...lol.

Well, I didn't win that item, but all is not lost.....that's all I'm saying for the moment. The first reason to bid on it is because it's absolutely beautiful. The second reason is that I could make back that ridiculous bid by selling just a few offerings of CLOWN PANTS X ZOLLO OMEGA. Could you image that cross?

Well, I could...lol. Congrats to Claudia on her big sale!
[Last edited by Ahead - Apr 12, 2021 5:18 PM (+)]
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Name: Steve Todd
Illinois (Zone 5b)
Region: Illinois Plant and/or Seed Trader Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Image
Ahead
Apr 12, 2021 5:33 AM CST
And Larry, thanks for asking your question! Besides what I mentioned above, there is a certain look that I find appealing this year, and wanted ZOLLO to complete that look. These are all hybridizer pictures, but it will give you some insight as to why I wanted to buy the magnificent Zollo. There is a method to my madness (which I know is still madness...lol.) These will be some of the crosses I will try this summer.


Thumb of 2021-04-12/Ahead/6c44ea
Thumb of 2021-04-12/Ahead/fe2628
Thumb of 2021-04-12/Ahead/427438
Thumb of 2021-04-12/Ahead/f36365
Thumb of 2021-04-12/Ahead/4f27ec
Thumb of 2021-04-12/Ahead/450256

Name: Joyce
Massachusetts
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Crazyplantlady611
Apr 12, 2021 7:16 AM CST
Steve, I think I know what you mean by all is not lost - may be on the same page there. I had watched Zollo Omega due to its high bidders, but I knew I had no chance. Couldn't believe it when I checked in to see where this sale had ended. I congratulate Claudia as well! Always a pleasure to do business w/her. Cross that "baby" & potentially make back your money & then some, plus dream if all those new creations down the road...
Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Apr 12, 2021 7:35 AM CST
What was the final price? Last I looked it was at around 700

Eagleriver
Apr 12, 2021 8:00 AM CST
Wendy it went for $1135
Name: Roger & Karen
Birmingham, Al (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Alabama Butterflies Enjoys or suffers hot summers Seed Starter
Hummingbirder Critters Allowed
Diggerofdirt
Apr 12, 2021 8:35 AM CST
Wow!!!!!
I could pay three house payments with that.
My hubby would shoot me.
Addiction i have that kind of money i dont.
I tip my hat to you. to the winner.
Every home needs a daylily, and every daylily needs a home.
Name: Wendy
mid-Atlantic (Zone 6b)
robinjoy
Apr 12, 2021 9:29 AM CST
Oh my goodness!

And then there's the assumption that the resulting cross with Zollo Omega could recoup its cost - where are we headed?

Nice result for Claudia though

Boston, MA
Bee Lover
plasko20
Apr 12, 2021 9:45 AM CST
robinjoy said:Oh my goodness!

And then there's the assumption that the resulting cross with Zollo Omega could recoup its cost - where are we headed?

Nice result for Claudia though



There are some home plant-tissue-culture kits one can buy, and you can turn a single plant into 100 clone plants within a single year. I have researched this quite a bit as it sounds not only fun, but possibly quite lucrative.
There is a company in Canada that will clone your daylilies for you, like this (for a few thousand Canadian $$). Ethically, they say that the dayliliy has to be one you registered (or will register). You cannot just use anyone's creation as the starter. Then they ship all the baby plants down to you.

So multiply $1000 for a fan x 100 clones = $100,000.
Gardening: So exciting I wet my plants!
Name: Steve Todd
Illinois (Zone 5b)
Region: Illinois Plant and/or Seed Trader Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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Ahead
Apr 12, 2021 9:53 AM CST
Well, the trouble is that once you have created 1000 plants, you can kiss that $1000 per plant goodbye.

[Last edited by Ahead - Apr 12, 2021 10:28 AM (+)]
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Name: Zoia Bologovsky
Stoneham MA (Zone 6a)
Enjoys or suffers cold winters Cat Lover Butterflies Birds Region: Massachusetts Bee Lover
Daylilies
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Zoia
Apr 12, 2021 11:32 AM CST
Exactly. It pretty much erases the value. There's a reason new plants are so expensive and it's mostly about availability. ( or UNavailability, specifically).
Boston, MA
Bee Lover
plasko20
Apr 12, 2021 12:03 PM CST
I agree, market saturation will erase value. Rarity = value. But, like DeBiers do with diamonds, if you completely control the flow and only sell a few every year then you will keep demand high as well as prices. And if it is a slow-growing daylily there is even more incentive, as your competition will be virtually non-existent.
Anyhow, I am more interested in the experiment itself than any money. I doubt I would ever make 100 clones of anything (where would I grow them!?). Maybe just 1 or 2 clones would be cool. Just for the bragging rights and to learn about the science. Indeed, I have another experiment I have planned for fun.
Apparently, if you expose daylily seeds (or seeds of any plant) to the mutagenic chemical ethyl methanesulfonate (EMS) for 24h, then wash it away you may end up with new interesting phenotypes of the surviving seeds (expected 50% death rate). But the phenotypes may not appear until you back-cross the daylilies. That sounds like super fun (well, aside from the chemical being carcinogenic if exposed - the seeds cannot be touched with bare hands after exposure). Creating mutant novel daylilies faster than selective breeding does. I would only use Diploids for ease of mutation and back-cross.
This got in my head after I read about a type of dwarf Forsythia being made after bombardment of the seeds with radiation (there are many others created this way, too). EMS is used to make varieties of wheat with higher nutritional content, or resistance to the inclement weather. The experiments people perform with plants are awesome. Tet-conversion is cool, too, as an experiment.
Ah, we can dream.
Gardening: So exciting I wet my plants!
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Apr 12, 2021 1:00 PM CST
EMS can be used to generate mutations. Even with mutagenic (dangerous) chemicals, the frequency of new mutations is still very low and a large number of seedlings must be examined to find interesting new mutants. Below is part of the introduction to a protocol for producing new mutations.

"... in some cases (e.g., mutagenesis of a specific genotype), it is necessary for an investigator to generate EMS-mutagenized seed. In this protocol, EMS is used at concentrations that induce multiple point mutations in each plant, such that mutant alleles of a specific locus are found at a rate of ~1 in 2000-5000 M2 plants. This high rate of mutagenesis makes possible the screening of relatively few plants to find those with the phenotype of interest, a particular advantage if the screen is laborious or if only a small number of genes mutate to the required phenotype."

For researchers, "relatively few plants" means growing and checking thousands of seedlings from self-pollinating the seedlings of the previous generation. Note, some diploid daylilies are self-compatible and some are not - success in self-pollinating most of the seedlings from treated seeds would probably require that the parents of the treated seeds were known to be self-compatible.

This example from cucumbers may be more appropriate.
"In this study, cucumber (Cucumis sativus L. cv. "Shannong No. 5") seeds were treated by 1% EMS for 12 h, 24 h and 48 h to optimize EMS mutagenesis and determined median lethal dose of EMS (1% EMS and 24 h) for "Shannong No. 5". After treated by 1% EMS for 24 h, 541 M1 plants were grown in greenhouse for
phenotype investigation. The fertility of M1 cucumbers was very low, and only 79 lines produced
seeds after self crossing. 60 independent M2 families comprising 600 M2 plants were investigated
for phenotypic alteration, and 11 individual mutant lines were isolated"

To obtain 500 M1 plants 1000 seeds were treated (approximately 50% mortality). Only 79 of the 500 plants produced seeds. The researchers examined 60 of those plants by self-pollinating them and producing 10 seedlings from each one (so that they would produce enough seedlings to find at least one with any visible mutations). They found 11 mutations. To have a 95% chance of finding at least one mutation one would have to screen at least 30 plants by self-pollinating them and growing at least 10 seedlings from each one (for a total of 300).

P.S. Used solutions of EMS (that have been used to mutagenize seeds) have to be chemically treated to destroy their ability to create mutations in living organisms. The treated solutions have to be disposed of using recommended safe methods.
From another protocol "Caution: Steps 6 to 8 should be done in a fume hood because EMS is volatile and highly toxic."
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Apr 12, 2021 2:03 PM (+)]
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