Daylilies forum→SCARLET PIMPERNEL question

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Name: Charley
Arroyo Seco New Mexico (Zone 4b)
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Charlemagne
Apr 13, 2021 11:15 AM CST
Our database list SP as having 10-15 buds and three way branching.

The Lily Auction has an auction for SP that lists 42 buds, 7 branches.

Is either one close to accurate?

Charley
May your coffee kick in before reality does.
Name: Steve Todd
Illinois (Zone 5b)
Region: Illinois Plant and/or Seed Trader Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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Ahead
Apr 13, 2021 11:21 AM CST
Charley,

I have had mine for many years, here in northern Illinois. I would guess my stats are somewhere in between. It does clump up quickly so having enough bloom is never a problem. It has been great here.

Steve

[Last edited by Ahead - Apr 13, 2021 12:52 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #2476076 (2)
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 13, 2021 11:21 AM CST
They could both be correct, the hybridizer registered it as it was growing in their garden. So I am assuming the seller is not the hybridizer and that he is showing what the plant was capable of growing in his garden. I guess it is possible that the hybridizer could still be the seller and as the plant matured it did better. I once had a hybridizer tell me that he made the mistake of registering his plants too quickly because after another year or two the stats really jumped.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Apr 13, 2021 11:52 AM (+)]
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Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
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SunriseSide
Apr 13, 2021 11:22 AM CST
It is registered as 12 bud 3 br so someone is exaggerating
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Name: Betty
MN zone 4b
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daylilydreams
Apr 13, 2021 11:48 AM CST
The seller is in GA so thinking it may produce more buds in a warmer climate than Iowa where the hybridizer lives, although that is a big difference. I planted it last year so will have to wait and see a couple of years to see how it does here where our climate is close to Iowa's.
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Betty MN Zone4 AHS member

Name: Charley
Arroyo Seco New Mexico (Zone 4b)
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Charlemagne
Apr 13, 2021 12:20 PM CST
Thank you for your answers. I suspect that there could be that much variation depending on climate, just wanted to check. Some of my New Mexico hems show very differently from their registered numbers.

I didn't mean to imply that the seller was exaggerating. (I never ever exaggerate, ever!)

Charley
May your coffee kick in before reality does.
Name: Celeste
central New Hampshire (Zone 4b)
Region: New Hampshire Peonies Dragonflies Irises Hummingbirder Hellebores
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celestialrose
Apr 13, 2021 12:35 PM CST
I have grown Scarlet Pimpernel for years in my zone 4/5 New Hampshire garden. It is not in an optimal site nor do I fuss over it so with better culture I am sure the stats would be better. I think it is on track for what it's registered at here. (Keep in mind that in my climate bud count on anything is not what it would be in a warmer zone and I don't expect it). I must say that I ADORE this daylily. It's one of the first to bloom and is a knockout in a clump. Healthy and hardy. Very fertile too, if you are into hybridizing.

I have several photos over on the database:
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Name: Jan Wax
Mendocino County, N. CA (Zone 9a)
I'm a semi-retired studio potter.
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janwax
Apr 13, 2021 12:52 PM CST
Nice photo, nice DL, Celeste!
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Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
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floota
Apr 13, 2021 1:34 PM CST
SW VA, edge of climate zones 6/7: It does make an imposing clump. Blooms are huge. Even with irrigation, bud count is around 15.
Thumb of 2021-04-13/floota/5ac597

Name: Avedon
NE Tex (Zone 8a)
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Avedon
Apr 13, 2021 9:16 PM CST
Scarlet Pimpernel arrived here last fall as a very small plant, so was not expecting anything much this year. However, nearly all our plants are looking fantastic, we have never seen them look this good and big. Speculation is that the extreme cold weather with ice and snow might be the reason--maybe all that moisture locked in for quite some time followed by a wet March pumped up all of them. Keep everybody posted as to the progress of SP, perhaps there will be good growth, and we will be surprised by some nice flowers here in Zone 8A.
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Region: Virginia Photo Contest Winner: 2015 Heucheras Cat Lover Hummingbirder
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floota
Apr 13, 2021 9:44 PM CST
Ok, so I looked up the listing on the LA. A LOT of information is listed incorrectly besides this . Budding and branching. Parentage, awards data, and even hybridizers name are ALL incorrect. I would question the seller on this, Is this simply copying information incorrectly? Or something else. Sorry, too many red flags for me.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 14, 2021 6:25 AM CST
Yes there is some confusion here, I copied and pasted this from the AHS site.


Scarlet Pimpernel (Ripley, 2006)
height 35 in.(89 cm), bloom 10 in.(25 cm), season EM, Rebloom, Semi-Evergreen, Tetraploid, 12 buds, 3 branches, Unusual Form Crispate, Royal garnet red above yellow leading to green throat. (Ruby Spider × Royal Celebration)
Awards: Stout 2019; AM 2016; HM 2013; NRS 2013

[Last edited by Seedfork - Apr 14, 2021 7:05 AM (+)]
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Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
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blue23rose
Apr 14, 2021 6:51 AM CST
I believe some of the description is that of 'Black Panther', which is a cross of (Earth Shaker x Heavenly Thunderbird) x Webster's Purple Wonder. The bud count and branching also matches what the seller has listed as being for 'Black Panther'. Not sure how a seller could get that color description correct, but the rest of the info wrong.

Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
[Last edited by blue23rose - Apr 14, 2021 6:59 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #2476685 (13)
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Apr 14, 2021 7:03 AM CST
It appears that the seller is new, so I sent a private message to give them the opportunity to correct the listing.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Apr 14, 2021 8:28 AM CST
I received a response from the seller and it will be corrected. The seller, Ktlu, appreciated the feedback and mentions that work is needed on their copying and pasting.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
[Last edited by blue23rose - Apr 14, 2021 10:55 AM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #2476745 (15)
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Apr 14, 2021 10:56 AM CST
@seedfork, Larry, thanks for the acorn! It was a mystery that begged to be solved, lol.
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Debra
Nashville, TN (Zone 7a)
Daylilies Cat Lover Butterflies Region: Tennessee Seed Starter
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shive1
Apr 14, 2021 12:25 PM CST
It does look like Vickie has solved the mystery. Good sleuthing, Vickie!

But sometimes the difference between registered and bud counts and bud counts in other climates is pretty different. I registered my own Sangria With Mia as having 18 buds back in a three-year drought. The next year, we had flooding rains and its bud counts were in the high 30s. The Lily Farm registered Summer Snowball as having 15 buds, but it always has many more in my garden. Last year bud counts ranged from 20-34.

It does surprise me that Scarlet Pimpernel, a cultivar with a registered bud count of 12, won the Stout Medal. Does its propensity to multiply quickly offset the low bud count for those of you who grow it? What makes Scarlet Pimpernel so great that it deserved the South Medal? I have a black purple tet UF seedling that is tall, beautiful, and multiplies like crazy. I've been reluctant to register it because bud counts so far have only been 14-17. (My goal for registration is an average of 18 buds.) Seeing the stats on Scarlet Pimpernel make me rethink that one. Everyone who sees my UF bed asks about that seedling.
Name: Vickie
Elberfeld, Indiana, USA (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
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blue23rose
Apr 14, 2021 1:03 PM CST
Thanks, Debra!
Vickie
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Apr 14, 2021 2:24 PM CST
I had fallen for high bud counts and great branching numbers, but I have learned that a term I was not familiar with until recently (scape density) can make up for the low bud counts and branching. Sadly it is a stat that is not included when looking up plants in the database. Scape density is simply the ability of the plant to put out lots of scapes, therefore more blooms. It is a wonderful thing, but unless the hybridizer mentions it in a catalog or people pass it along verbally when discussing plants, you just have to discover it out in the garden. So I would suspect that Scarlet Pimpernel may possesses that trait. Also maybe it has great disease and rust resistance and just beautiful foliage.
I would love for some of the people who grow it to tell us why they think it should have won the Stout Silver Medal.
Name: Steve Todd
Illinois (Zone 5b)
Region: Illinois Plant and/or Seed Trader Daylilies Enjoys or suffers cold winters
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Ahead
Apr 14, 2021 5:08 PM CST
Picture, Deb?

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