Daylilies forum→Does Oakes Daylilies sell unregistered daylilies?

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Missouri (Zone 6a)
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Frillylily
Apr 14, 2021 9:03 PM CST
https://oakesdaylilies.com/pro...

I can't find this in the database here, or on AHS , does anyone know whats up about that?
Name: Julie
Roanoke, VA (Zone 7a)
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floota
Apr 14, 2021 11:01 PM CST
I would ask them!
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
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Hortaholic
Apr 15, 2021 1:53 AM CST
Frillylily,
Oakes does sell some daylilies which have unregistered names. Lady Georgia is one of them.
Sometimes these are registered cultivars which have been renamed.

For example, Miss Victoria (unregistered, not currently offered) is the same as 'So Sweet'. When it was first offered I suspected so by the description, purchased one, and planted it next to 'So Sweet'. Completely identical.

Miss Tinkerbell (unregistered) is clearly identical to 'Siloam Little Girl'.

Miss Amelia (unregistered) is identical to 'May May'. Compare the descriptions, Every detail is identical.

I'm growing Miss Mary Mary (unregistered) but haven't determined what it might be.

I'm guessing Lady Georgia is a renamed registered cultivar because Oakes usually registers daylilies they hybridize. This may also be true of Lady Melanie (unregistered). But 'Lady Lucillle' (Warrell) is registered.

Most of this started when Oakes became affiliated with the "All American Daylily Selection Council". In fact the AADSC address is now in Corryton, TN where Oakes is. The AADSC is a purely commercial organization which should not be confused with the All American Selections organizations which are nonprofit and have public test gardens. AADSC is opaque in every way.

In 1998 Star Struck was anointed an AADSC "All American". This daylily is evidently identical to the one Oakes previously sold as Jen Melon, a registered name. They no longer offer it (as Jen Melon) even though it was one of their most popular. Adding an additional mystery, it appears the one sold all those years as Jen Melon (and now Star Struck) may not be the one originally registered as JM. I asked Oakes about this once and received a noncommittal reply.

There is one other common source of dual-naming of cultivars. Patented plants must have a cultivar name. But their commercial owners often give them a different name for marketing. Oakes offers 'Dynamite Returns' (Apps - BlewR 2007) which is the registered cultivar name of the Plant Patent #20002 daylily which is marketed in garden centers as Passionate Returns.

If you don't check the AHS database you could pay to acquire the same daylily twice 😐, because, if you liked it once you'd probably like it again! You might enjoy having more of it, but you did want to get a different one.

Plus, if you should ever want to compete in an AHS exhibition to share your beautiful flowers with the public, unregistered named entries would not be accepted.

Oakes used to be highly supportive of AHS. They may still be. But their market is not to advanced daylily collectors who exhibit. They've cast a wider net. They "catch" a lot of first time daylily buyers and reel them in by selling high quality plants of a diverse selection of cultivars that perform well. Having hooked them, many of their customers eventually find their way to AHS. So overall I think that despite the few name glitches their influence is highly positive.
Pat
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Apr 15, 2021 6:24 AM CST
@Hortaholic, Welcome!
Welcome to the forum. Great information, I can tell you may be new here but not new to gardening or to daylilies.
That is the kind of information that is hard to come by, and it sounds like you got a lot of it by some hands on research! I am adding your post to my favorites for future reference.
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
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SunriseSide
Apr 15, 2021 7:37 AM CST
Years ago "Lady Georgia", "Lady Scarlet" and unregistered others that escape me D'Oh! seem to have been first marketed by Blooms Of Bressingham. That marketing effort did not last long but the plants persist. [I have the two named above]
Edit: I also have "Lady Rose"
Life is better at the lake.
[Last edited by SunriseSide - Apr 16, 2021 2:41 PM (+)]
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Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Apr 15, 2021 8:08 AM CST
@Hortaholic Thank You! That information was helpful! I tip my hat to you.

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure if was just seeing some sort of mistake or misspelling ect when I was looking into it.

I think Proven Winners does something similar-well I've not seen them 're' name daylilies I guess, they just pot up some OLD thing, and market it as 'new' and I tell people you can buy that for half the money on line because it's been around forever. It's just a marketing gimmick I guess.

Well the thing is I am trying to ID a NOID I have had for some years and thought it may be Lady Georgia, but well, who knows what THAT is! Rolling my eyes. So I guess I'll have to pass!

Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
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Hortaholic
Apr 15, 2021 12:48 PM CST
Wow! I wasn't expecting so much interest in that! Thanks for the welcomes and thumbs up and acorns! Very kind and encouraging. Thank You!

Frillylily, it will be very hard to ID a daylily similar to Lady Georgia. I'm supposing it's a melon-colored self (all one color). There are truly thousands of those, named and unnamed.

I forgot to mention that another source of dual-named or unregistered-name daylilies is the "garden name". A gardener with a daylily they like but don't know the name of (it may not have one, see below) gives it a name they create. Let's say "My Pet". There's a registered 'My Pet' (Joiner, 1986) but they're unaware of it. Maybe they share the plant with friends. Now there are two different cultivars circulating under one name.

Backyard hybridizers often do this with favorite seedlings. The American Hemerocallis Society strongly discourages it, clearly for good reason, but it's human and understandable.

There are also thousands upon thousands of unnamed seedlings sold by hybridizers and commercial growers every year. These may be the source of some of those "mixed" collections sold. These are rightly unnamed. But as above, people sometimes give them names.

Sometimes new daylily collectors (naively) think that every daylily has a name, so they try to figure it out. It's not uncommon while preparing entries for a daylily show that a new collector wants to enter a daylily they don't have a name for, and walk it around the room asking others if they know what it is. I always decline to offer any possibility because if someone tells them "it looks kind of like 'My Pet'", sure enough it will be entered in the show with that name stuck on it. If the judges know 'My Pet' well, they'll recognize it's wrong and mark that on the entry tag, disqualifying it. But if not, they have to accept it as entered and judge it. If it's well grown it might even get a blue ribbon. Now it gets mis-labeled 'My Pet' in that garden, perhaps gets passed around ... an error is propagated.

My suggestion is to enjoy your NO ID for its beauty. Mentally give it a name if you'd like but keep it your secret. Maybe someday you will find what seems to be its perfect match. If so, buy it and grow it side by side with yours before deciding.
Pat
[Last edited by Hortaholic - May 5, 2021 9:52 PM (+)]
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Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
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Hortaholic
Apr 15, 2021 12:59 PM CST
Seedfork (Larry),

Thanks for your kind words! It's great to feel welcome .

I'm one of those gardeners who fell in love with it while toddling after my grandmothers in their flower gardens. Joyful memories of bouquets carried home to treasure til the next visit.

And yes, certainly not new to daylilies. I joined the American Hemerocallis Society in 1985 and a few years later my husband and I paid to become Life Members. It's been a good investment so far πŸ˜„ He and I are both Exhibition Judges and Instructors and Garden Judges and Instructors. We attend meetings and conventions and have come to love the people as much as the flowers. I highly recommend it!
Pat

Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Apr 15, 2021 1:05 PM CST
@Hortaholic
Any plans for being at the Nationals this year in Hattiesburg? If so maybe I will see you there. I will be taking the garden judges 2 course.
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
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Hortaholic
Apr 15, 2021 1:52 PM CST
SunriseSide said:Years ago "Lady Georgia", "Lady Scarlet" and unregistered others that escape me D'Oh! seem to have been first marketed by Blooms Of Bressingham. That marketing effort did not last long but the plants persist. [I have the two named above]


Hi SunriseSide (Dave),

I think Blooms and others may have joined the AADSC efforts too. Blooms was originated by Alan Bloom, a dignified horticulturist of the old school tradition. I heard him speak once and have a book he autographed.

When his son Adrian took over in 1985-1986 the Blooms of Bressingham name was adopted and the effort to commercialize on a larger scale began.

I was actually surprised when Oakes joined and don't know when it was. We've known all 3 generations of the Oakes, Bill, Stewart, and now Kenny leading it. Stewart and Kenny stayed overnight at out house when they brought a pickup load of daylilies for the display at Ameriflora in 1992.

The original Oakes under Bill was a traditional daylily nursery with hundreds of modestly priced choices. Their plants were known then as now for their high quality and generosity. Now it has transitioned to a more commercial style with a limited but diverse selection, a color catalog, website, etc. And their prices are often surprising for some of the older daylilies. However, they are simply matching the price to the perceived value and the demand.

We've done that with a handful of daylilies in our garden. If you can't keep it because everyone wants it - raise the price until it matches demand!

Jack Roberson of American Daylily & Pererennial was one of the first involved in AADSC. His 'Black Eyed Stella' was chosen as the first "All American Daylily" selection. This was probably not a coincidence!! It was heavily promoted in the press and to wholesale growers.

I know firsthand of a local wholesale grower who was selling 20,000 potted 'Stella de Oro' a year to local landscapers. He went all in on 'Black Eyed Stella'. There was a minimum commitment required by AADSC, I can't remember exactly, maybe 1,500 plants. At the end of the season he had taken down all the posters plastered in the sales office. He was still sitting on a large number of those, while basic Stella had continued to sell as before. He was fuming.

In other words, 'Black Eyed Stella' gave the AADSC a black eye and I don't think it has ever recovered.

Why? Because it was misrepresented in several ways. First, it does not have the expected "black eye". It's more a wishy-washy red that doesn't show up well, especially in sunlight. They claimed it bloomed up to 270 days a year. Where? I wondered. Definitely not in central Ohio - impossible πŸ˜‚ And the literature features a picture of what is implied to be a clump growing in a white pot. If you grow the plant you will realize that this is a picture of a "composed" clump - basically a type of flower arrangement. This is most commonly seen in marketing images in Dutch publications. The real thing is nothing like the picture and claims.

There is a lot more to say about AADSC, another time. For now please just remember that the AADSC "All American Daylily" choices are done privately with no public transparency. There is no network of public test gardens where you can see the cultivars under evaluation, as with All American Selections. The names of the judges are not public. Its hard to discover who even belongs to the "Council". It's all opaque.

The AADSC may be down but it's not out yet. We'll see if it ever comes to something.
Pat
[Last edited by Hortaholic - Apr 16, 2021 2:19 AM (+)]
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Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
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Hortaholic
Apr 15, 2021 2:03 PM CST
Seedfork said:@Hortaholic
Any plans for being at the Nationals this year in Hattiesburg? If so maybe I will see you there. I will be taking the garden judges 2 course.


Hi Larry, So glad to hear from a fellow Judge !

We would have loved to be at Hattiesburg. We have never been to a convention or even visited daylily gardens in Mississippi. Conventions are always wonderful experiences. Enjoy!

We have to be in Missouri for a graduation that weekend.

As my husband says Murphy's Law of events says that any two important ones that fall in the same season will be on the same day 😟

Pat
Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Apr 15, 2021 4:52 PM CST
well I've had my NOID for over 15 years but believe it originally came from either Oakes or Wilds, and the buyer forgot the name. I keep thinking maybe some day I will find it's name. I just refer to it as "NOID cantaloupe" I figure if I ever find one I think might be it, I can buy it and grow them together to see. I will probably never know it's name Sad
Name: Zoia Bologovsky
Stoneham MA (Zone 6a)
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Zoia
Apr 15, 2021 5:25 PM CST
I received Lady Lucille from G Wild last year by mistake ( it was supposed to be Lake of Fire). That is another Blooms of Bressingham but I haven't seen it bloom yet...that one is orange. G Wild doesn't tell you about the Blooms of Bressingham part, but it's obviously the same plant.

Pat @ Hortaholic, please stick around and comment on our Daylily forums! You are exactly the kind of source we all hope to hear from, with an active grasp of Daylily history over the last few decades.I love to hear the stories of how these things all hang together and who knew who.

I'm on the fence about attending the National. It's far for me and would be expensive to get there and back but it might be my only chance to do that. Usually, I'm extremely busy in May ( and June, July, August, etc).
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
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SunriseSide
Apr 15, 2021 6:11 PM CST
@Frillylily For reference, this is "Lady Georgia" as it blooms here.
Thumb of 2021-04-16/SunriseSide/6e683a

"
Life is better at the lake.
Oklahoma (Zone 7a)
Flowersgalore
Apr 15, 2021 6:39 PM CST
Yes, they do. I bought a "Carefree Peach" daylily from them a couple of years ago. It was not listed in the AHS database. Still isn't.
Lots of changes at Oaks this spring. Their prices have definitely gone up and the Under $10 section is a LOT smaller than past years.
But I bought daylilies there this spring and may do it again if something catches my eye.
My big surprise this year is my Wal-Mart 3 for $5 buy. They have thrived. Now if they are really Night Beacon......

Hortaholic, thank you for taking the time to write your informative post. Very interersting.
Missouri (Zone 6a)
Plant Identifier I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Frillylily
Apr 15, 2021 6:50 PM CST
Thumb of 2021-04-16/Frillylily/23729d


Thumb of 2021-04-16/Frillylily/aa187f


Thumb of 2021-04-16/Frillylily/b1d500

Here is the one I am comparing to, It has a good bud count, very diamond dusted, 36ish tall, holds its color pretty well through the day-does not melt, and has upright scapes-not a sprawler. Very robust plant that increases fast. I know it is an older one as I've had it for 15 years at least, it was given to me by someone who ordered alot from Oakes and Wilds, and she did not buy newer things, just the lower priced items. She could not remember it's name. It glows across the yard, I will never get rid of it Lovey dubby

I'd appreciate any tips on names if anyone has ideas.
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
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Hortaholic
Apr 15, 2021 7:25 PM CST
Zoia said:I received Lady Lucille from G Wild last year by mistake ( it was supposed to be Lake of Fire). That is another Blooms of Bressingham but I haven't seen it bloom yet...that one is orange. G Wild doesn't tell you about the Blooms of Bressingham part, but it's obviously the same plant.

>> It's clear Gilbert Wild has been acquired by a more commercial company but I don't know who. All the Wild's intros are gone. It's just the ones currently being promoted commercially

Pat @ Hortaholic, please stick around and comment on our Daylily forums! You are exactly the kind of source we all hope to hear from, with an active grasp of Daylily history over the last few decades.I love to hear the stories of how these things all hang together and who knew who.


>> Thank you, you are very kind, Zoia. Maybe I should change my screen name to DaylilyGossip. πŸ˜„

Zoia said:I'm on the fence about attending the National. It's far for me and would be expensive to get there and back but it might be my only chance to do that.


>> Do it!! I doubt you could regret it. I attended my first the year I joined AHS, when I only had 22 older daylilies. But it was in Detroit, so close. You might meet some ppl from this forum. And if not I can practically guarantee you'll make new friends. Plus you'll see some of the "famous" hybridizers. And hundreds of daylilies in beautiful gardens. The main risk is coming home with an endless wish list. πŸ˜„

Pat

[Last edited by Calif_Sue - May 11, 2021 9:49 AM (+)]
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Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
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Hortaholic
Apr 15, 2021 7:42 PM CST
Frillylily, Looking at your lovely daylily and the picture of Lady Georgia's flower shared by Dave @SunriseSide, I don't see any obvious differences that would prove they're different. But that's still not enough to prove they are the same. Notice the grey lines on the anthers of Lady Georgia? I see that your daylily has dark anthers but can't see that part. I notice the bud showing on yours is full and has dark green tips. That's not as pronounced on his LG but perhaps that is a culture difference. Otherwise the parts I can see seem identical. I'd still want to compare the overall growth habit, branching, etc.

I'm glad you'll always keep it because you love it. That's more important than the name.

Pat
[Last edited by Hortaholic - Apr 20, 2021 9:12 AM (+)]
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Wildbirds
Apr 16, 2021 11:24 AM CST
So Sweet >> Miss Victoria ... Miss Victoria >> So Sweet .... Thx Hortaholic for this information .... Based upon what I see with ATP & AHS records they certainly appear to be the same plant to me when I compare SS records to my own MV experience .... It's pleasing NOW to know MV is actually SS - a registered cultivar.

I focus on EE types so use EE & E & EM breeders, thus acquire breeder cultivars for their bloom period characteristics & NOT necessarily for their AHS registered pedigrees. This is how & why I acquired MV in '08 (Source NOT noted. Tag revealed Blooms of Bressingham + 'Lovely Lady Series'). Consequently I have about 12 years experience with MV/SS (Never yet divided & has bloomed well every year) ... (Like the Eveready Rabbit: Takes a beating but keeps on going)

I'm in Ontario @ Z4/5 range ... MV is as hardy as a polar bear ... Consistently Early (Mid June) ... Stella de Oro comparison HERE: FFO May23 (Earliest) Usually June 5-10th ... MV/SS:19-22 days bloom ... Inconsistent RE (Never July?) One season 3x RE: August + September + October (No RE some years) ... Thus conclude performance is BOTH husbandry & weather related/affected.

Consistently @ 24-25" here (SS Registered @ 22") + 5-8 buds & top-budded 'Y' ... Easy fertile BOTH ways ... Ix only incident of Spring Sickness: OK recovery. ... CMO inconsistent (Temps NOT noted) (CMO IS necessary for EE!) ... Usually EMO ... HSD ('High-Scape-Density' - Charlie Zettek Rochester NY breeder introduced this term/characteristic to me @ an Ontario Daylily Society presentation several years ago)

I've only started to breed with it in recent years ... NO notable seedlings so far ... Using MV with Stars My Destination (Michaels) + Begin With A Bang (Huben) + Centerton One (Blew) + Peanut Butter Fancy (Apps) + Sky High Butterfly (Mussar) ... Looking for white + colours + branching + buds + taller (Small-on-tall (SoT) ... EE Wildflowers style.)



Like so many other Historicals (Earlier cultivars probably close to h. species) this one - SO SWEET aka MISS VICTORIA - is one for that clichΓ© - Grow along the back-forty pasture fence. Tough as nails. A basic plain plant & bloom. Performs E as registered. Accepts neglect & weed competition .... AND still blooms for you.
Name: Robin
Southern Michigan (Zone 6a)
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RobinSeeds
Apr 16, 2021 12:44 PM CST
Wildbirds said:

... MV is as hardy as a polar bear ...


Hilarious! I like that quote...don't you wish it true for all of them?

God blessed me with dirt.
('Mipii' on The LA)

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