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Apr 29, 2021 1:18 AM CST
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
Annuals Seed Starter Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Art Daylilies
Garden Photography Butterflies Bookworm Plant and/or Seed Trader Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
beckygardener said:I think the soil and heat here in FL is part of the issue, but I suspect that it could be the root knot nematodes! (sigh) Maybe that is a good thing as we have enough invasive species here in FL already. Sticking tongue out


Hi Becky,

You are clearly aware of them but I think that nematodes, including root knot, are one of the most overlooked pests of daylilies. Easily overlooked ! As you know, they're in the soil and most are microscopic in size.

They do a lot of damage when their
populations are heavy by feeding on the roots. They divert a lot of the resources to their own growth. The wounds they make can be entry points for diseases including rots.

The first symptoms are that the plants start to wilt and/or look undernourished. Because they are! Frequent watering and increased fertilizing will forestall the potential for collapse for only awhile. If conditions get worse for the nematodes (such as much cooler weather) the plants may recover- until the next cycle.

I've received some daylilies from warm SE US places with sandy soils with roots badly stunted by root knot nemas (many of which were still in the roots, where the females imbed). A nematologist I showed them to was amazed they were still alive! Daylilies are indeed tough.

Pat
Using my middle name Ann wasn’t working well. Back to being one Pat among many others. 😄
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Apr 29, 2021 6:29 AM CST
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
Thank you, Pat. I have come to that conclusion about my struggling daylilies. You are most likely correct!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
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Apr 29, 2021 6:33 AM CST
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Hummingbirder Butterflies Seed Starter Container Gardener
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Ideas: Master Level Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Birds Ponds
Just out of curiosity .....
Are there any companion plants that I could plant next to my daylilies that repeal knot root nematodes?
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters, compared to what lies within us.
Garden Rooms and Becky's Budget Garden
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Apr 30, 2021 1:36 AM CST
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
Annuals Seed Starter Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Art Daylilies
Garden Photography Butterflies Bookworm Plant and/or Seed Trader Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
beckygardener said:Just out of curiosity .....
Are there any companion plants that I could plant next to my daylilies that repeal knot root nematodes?


When I was searching for reports of nematodes on daylilies, almost all were from Florida. That's not to say they are a worse problem there. In fact the worst-infested I ever received came from one of the Carolinas.

It's that the Florida Dept of Agriculture has an excellent staff of nematologists who actually take the time to study samples of lesser crops like daylilies. The main reason they are employed though is the wide range of nematode species causing problems for the major crops.

One natural method that's been used to control root knot nematodes is to plant marigolds. The article(s) I saw. which I can't find now, indicated that using them effectively requires removing all other hosts which might have roots in that soil area, then plant it thickly and solidly with the marigolds for one season. This is supposed to clear the soil of them. It's only temporary though because the soil is readily re-infested. It would work best for crops of annual species.

I found a 2008 post in Dave's Garden by a gardener in Ft Myers, FL who said they have had good results growing tomatoes in a patch of the Nema-Gone variety of marigolds, and that normally they can't because of the root knot nemas.

Burpee sells Nema-Gone. So far as I can tell, it's simply a French dwarf type. Another Dave's garden post said it self-sows freely.

It couldn't hurt to try planting some around some daylilies to see. I'd expect them to work best around small daylily clumps.

You can help the daylilies ride out peak nema season by fertilizing them well year-round to keep them growing strongly. Liquid fertilizers with all the minors are the best for supplying all the essential elements.

Root knot are not the only kind of nemas that have been found on daylilies in Florida. They all cause similar types of problems because they all feed on the roots.

If it's root knot nemas, you can see them. They do *not* make knots on daylily roots. The females embed in the tuberous roots. You can see them by sectioning tubers lengthwise. They are small, brownish, and roughly circular. About 1-2 mm across. I have images but not handy here.

Badly infested tubers will have dry, cracked, split tips where there should be a smooth rounded tip with small whitish roots growing.

Keep me posted on anything you try or learn!

Pat
Using my middle name Ann wasn’t working well. Back to being one Pat among many others. 😄
Last edited by Hortaholic Apr 30, 2021 8:07 AM Icon for preview
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Apr 30, 2021 6:06 AM CST
Name: Vickie
southern Indiana (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
Good suggestion, Pat. I was reading up on root knot nematodes too and saw that marigolds were supposed to help manage the population. I found this article that backs up what you said and mentions that different types of marigolds will bring different results.
https://www.lsuagcenter.com/pr...
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
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Apr 30, 2021 8:32 AM CST
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
Annuals Seed Starter Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Art Daylilies
Garden Photography Butterflies Bookworm Plant and/or Seed Trader Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
blue23rose said:Good suggestion, Pat. I was reading up on root knot nematodes too and saw that marigolds were supposed to help manage the population. I found this article that backs up what you said and mentions that different types of marigolds will bring different results.
https://www.lsuagcenter.com/pr...




Vickie @blue23rose,
Thank you for sharing that article link! I highly recommend it to anyone wanting more in-depth information.

I'll note here for anyone who doesn't read it that it says 'Tangerine' marigold appears to be especially effective, while Signet is *not*. I find this confusing because I can't locate a marigold named Tangerine. There is a 'Tangerine Gem' which is a Signet variety. These are Tagetes tenuifolium. It does say that French marigolds in general are effective.

And it also said that they are most effective used as a cover crop for 3-4 months between actual crops, and much less so with perennials.

I would still give them a try if they are easily worked into your garden plans.

Pat
Using my middle name Ann wasn’t working well. Back to being one Pat among many others. 😄
Last edited by Hortaholic Apr 30, 2021 8:17 PM Icon for preview
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Apr 30, 2021 10:22 AM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Hortaholic said:
I'll note here for anyone who doesn't read it that it says 'Tangerine' marigold appears to be especially effective, while Signet is *not*. I find this confusing because I can't locate a marigold named Tangerine. There is a 'Tangerine Gem' which is a Signet variety. These are Tagetes tenuifolium. It does say that French marigolds in general are effective.


From this article from North Carolina Dept of Agriculture, sounds like they mean Tagetes patula 'Tangerine' (Table 1). "Tagetes signata cv. Tangerine Gem, for example, will not control root knot......Use a marigold variety known to be Tagetes erecta or T. patula."

Root-knot Nematodes: Biocontrol with French Marigold
http://www.oisat.org/downloads...

Tagetes patula 'Tangerine'
https://www.seedaholic.com/tag...
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Apr 30, 2021 6:06 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Florida's east coast (Zone 9a)
Birds Bromeliad Garden Photography Daylilies Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Tropicals
This is exactly why I grow my daylilies in raised boxes. I'm on the beach with total sand in the yard. The daylilies grew there but didn't flourish. Now they are big, bold and beautiful!
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Apr 30, 2021 7:52 PM CST
Name: Arlene
Florida's east coast (Zone 9a)
Birds Bromeliad Garden Photography Daylilies Region: Florida Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Tropicals
Here is one of the boxes from this morning. Happy plants! Happy gardener!!

Thumb of 2021-05-01/florange/0fdfae
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Apr 30, 2021 7:55 PM CST
Name: Vickie
southern Indiana (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
Very nice, Arlene!
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
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May 2, 2021 8:01 AM CST
Name: Jobe
SC
Daylilies Dog Lover Region: South Carolina Vegetable Grower Seller of Garden Stuff
Hortaholic said:

Hi Becky,

You are clearly aware of them but I think that nematodes, including root knot, are one of the most overlooked pests of daylilies. Easily overlooked ! As you know, they're in the soil and most are microscopic in size.

They do a lot of damage when their
populations are heavy by feeding on the roots. They divert a lot of the resources to their own growth. The wounds they make can be entry points for diseases including rots.

The first symptoms are that the plants start to wilt and/or look undernourished. Because they are! Frequent watering and increased fertilizing will forestall the potential for collapse for only awhile. If conditions get worse for the nematodes (such as much cooler weather) the plants may recover- until the next cycle.

I've received some daylilies from warm SE US places with sandy soils with roots badly stunted by root knot nemas (many of which were still in the roots, where the females imbed). A nematologist I showed them to was amazed they were still alive! Daylilies are indeed tough.

Pat


We manage our daylily nursery in SC, Hemingway Nursery (www.roycroftdaylilies.com), and yes, nematodes are around. They're in the soil, and you can't completely get rid of them. The goal is to manage them, keep their populations down so that they do not harm your daylilies. We have Clemson test our soil every season around April 1st. We use Promax Humagrow. You can apply it year round, but we apply it late summer/early fall, after all the plants have flowered. We find it works well, but it is a little pricey. Feel free to call us, #s at our website, if we can assist in any way.
Jobe, Hemingway Nursery
www.roycroftdaylilies.com
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May 2, 2021 10:49 AM CST
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
Annuals Seed Starter Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Art Daylilies
Garden Photography Butterflies Bookworm Plant and/or Seed Trader Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Jobe01 said:

We manage our daylily nursery in South Carolina...
We use Promax Humagrow. .., It is a little pricey...
Feel free to call us, #s at our website, if we can assist in any way.


@beckygardener @jobe01

Becky, I was going to write a post about the potential benefits of amending your soil with organic matter and perhaps even some topsoil. Later. For now I just want to say these "humate" products are not the same thing.

I wish I had time to write more now. I just don't. But I want to put some brakes on this topic before it goes further!

The commercial humates promotion business has been around for at least 100 years. I have an article from the 1930's pointing out how ridiculous the claims were (and still are).

For now I'll offer this link. Taken out of context, some of its statements could be seen as positive. But that is not the emphasis. This was written by two major agricultural academic organizations in Australia.

Commercial Humates in Agriculture:
Real Substance or Smoke and Mirrors?
https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachm...

I have other articles I'd like to discuss, later.

I note that Huma Gro is mounting huge promotional campaigns and that it is soliciting distributors to "sell high quality products at higher margins". Margins are profits and you can bet they are high.

@jobe1, it seems whenever you post it's with a prominent promotional link to your website. Now I am wondering- do you sell these products ? If not, are you planning to?

Pat
Using my middle name Ann wasn’t working well. Back to being one Pat among many others. 😄
Last edited by Hortaholic May 2, 2021 11:23 AM Icon for preview
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May 2, 2021 6:28 PM CST
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
Annuals Seed Starter Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Art Daylilies
Garden Photography Butterflies Bookworm Plant and/or Seed Trader Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Jobe01 said:
We manage our daylily nursery in SC, yes, nematodes are around. They're in the soil, and you can't completely get rid of them. The goal is to manage them, keep their populations down ..,
We use Promax Humagrow. You can apply it year round, but we apply it late summer/early fall ...


While I was too busy to write more, Sue @sooby looked up Huma Gro Promax. It's not one of the humate products. The label says its active ingredient is 3.5% thyme oil. That's all. So we can leave humates for another discussion.

Promax says it is a contact nematicide and fungicide. That is a very, very broad claim - implying it kills all fungi and nematodes it contacts. Unlikely. And not beneficial if it did. @Jobe01 acknowledges that "you can't kill all of them".

Let's keep in mind that of all the nematodes in the soil, ones like root knot nematodes are the least likely to be killed, because they are imbedded in the roots where the oil can't contact them. The operative word is "contact". On the other hand, the beneficial nematodes are free-living in the soil, so they would be more vulnerable. Kill the good ones, leave the bad ones. Not a good approach.

I could write a dissertation on the problems with this product and its claims.

But let's start with that thought. A healthy soil, as we all know, is a complex environment of interactions between the living organisms and the soil components. Many people are probably unaware that the vast majority of nematodes in the soil are beneficial or neutral towards plant growth. Only a fraction are plant parasitic. Almost all soils contain one or more of these. But their populations are kept at low levels in natural environments.

Cultivated environments can have very disturbed environments. But killing off all the nematodes and fungi, if it could be done, would certainly not be beneficial.

Here's an article that discusses these issues. After people have a chance to read it, I might write about the many ways that this product would be detrimental. Although, not as detrimental as the label might suggest because it is also likely that it is largely ineffective especially for the ones of prime interest here - root knot.

It is pricey though, that much is correct.

https://eorganic.org/node/4495

Pat
Using my middle name Ann wasn’t working well. Back to being one Pat among many others. 😄
Last edited by Hortaholic May 2, 2021 9:31 PM Icon for preview
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May 2, 2021 6:58 PM CST
Name: Zoia Bologovsky
Stoneham MA (Zone 6a)
Bee Lover Birds Butterflies Cat Lover Daylilies Region: Massachusetts
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
That was super interesting, thanks Pat!
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May 3, 2021 7:07 AM CST
Name: Jobe
SC
Daylilies Dog Lover Region: South Carolina Vegetable Grower Seller of Garden Stuff
Hortaholic said:

@beckygardener @jobe01

Becky, I was going to write a post about the potential benefits of amending your soil with organic matter and perhaps even some topsoil. Later. For now I just want to say these "humate" products are not the same thing.

I wish I had time to write more now. I just don't. But I want to put some brakes on this topic before it goes further!

The commercial humates promotion business has been around for at least 100 years. I have an article from the 1930's pointing out how ridiculous the claims were (and still are).


Hello Pat, wow, didn't expect that. Was just trying to provide daylily folks with ideas to deal with their issues. Didn't expect to be blind-sided. We've used Promax for our flowers with positive results on nematodes. No, not selling the product. Have no desire to. Yes, I do post a link to my nursery website. After all, I am in the business of selling daylilies. It would be foolish of me not to make people aware of what we offer. Our website; www.roycroftdaylilies.com


For now I'll offer this link. Taken out of context, some of its statements could be seen as positive. But that is not the emphasis. This was written by two major agricultural academic organizations in Australia.

Commercial Humates in Agriculture:
Real Substance or Smoke and Mirrors?
https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachm...

I have other articles I'd like to discuss, later.

I note that Huma Gro is mounting huge promotional campaigns and that it is soliciting distributors to "sell high quality products at higher margins". Margins are profits and you can bet they are high.

@jobe1, it seems whenever you post it's with a prominent promotional link to your website. Now I am wondering- do you sell these products ? If not, are you planning to?

Pat
Jobe, Hemingway Nursery
www.roycroftdaylilies.com
Last edited by Jobe01 May 3, 2021 7:39 AM Icon for preview
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May 3, 2021 7:45 AM CST
Name: Jobe
SC
Daylilies Dog Lover Region: South Carolina Vegetable Grower Seller of Garden Stuff
More on nematodes, many farmers in my area rotate their crops, as this manages the growth of nematodes. That's not practical with daylilies as they're perennials. However, you can plow between your flower rows regularly. I've heard from others this helps control the nema population.

For large plantings like we have (almost 3 acres of flowers), many of these remedies aren't practical, so we do use fungicides and other environment/flower friendly additives to protect/enhance the flowers. We always research our additives, to confirm they're environment safe, and not only control pests such as Nemas, but return valuable nutrients to the soil.

As others have pointed out on this thread, you can recognize a root-know Nema infestation by observing the flower root system. There's a lot of great details and pictures on the web you can access.

Jobe
www.roycroftdaylilies.com
Jobe, Hemingway Nursery
www.roycroftdaylilies.com
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May 3, 2021 9:40 AM CST
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
Jobe, don't take too personal the post by Pat, I could see that coming (not blind sided by it). When a new person comes on the forum promoting themselves (sells site) a red flag often goes out. Maybe a more subtle approach to the promotional aspect would be more appreciated and after we all get to know you better we would be drawn to your site . I love having professional growers on here and I welcome their experience. We do have some really knowledgeable people on here with a lot of science behind them, but we are mostly just daylily gardeners having a hobby we enjoy. We do welcome you, but if you read through the forum, you will find it is not a place for advertising and business promotion as such, but by getting to know the people and their desire for knowledge and new plants if you post often with useful info, plant photos, etc. That will be the best way to promote your business...all just my opinion.
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May 3, 2021 10:01 AM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Sages Plant Identifier
One way to include one's web address automatically but more subtly is to use the signature option, then there is a line under each of one's posts below which one can include such information. How to do it is explained here:

The thread "How to change my forum signature" in Site Talk forum

The posts of blue23rose and beckygardener in this thread show what a signature can look like.
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May 3, 2021 1:27 PM CST
Name: Pat
Columbus, Ohio (Zone 6a)
Annuals Seed Starter Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Native Plants and Wildflowers Garden Art Daylilies
Garden Photography Butterflies Bookworm Plant and/or Seed Trader Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
@jobe1

I apologize for the "blind-siding" if you were not aware of the rules and conventions of the forums.

My general philosophy is that a person cannot be blind-sided if they don't have a blind side - that is, if they know what they are doing. If it seems innocent from lack of opportunity to learn, I'll offer some gentle education. Likewise, if someone is innocently spreading misinformation. But if a person appears to have not bothered to read the directions, or has ignored offers of correct information, that's a willful blind side, and I'll challenge it.

There's an old story in Missouri where my daughter lives. A farmer is selling a mule and tells a potential buyer how great a worker it is and how well it follows directions. The interested buyer asks for a demonstration. The farmer picks up a club and hits the mule on the head. He tells the puzzled buyer "First you have to get its attention ".

The inappropriate promotional activity was tolerable until it touched on a very sore point - the ProMax.

My career was with a government agency identifying pests on plants in their growing sites. Part of the year I was assigned to reviewing preliminary pesticide labels submitted for registration. I had to verify that the labels met EPA registration requirements. The issue of over-promotion of inadequate control products was always a prime irritation. I had to try to educate growers against the promotional hype.

I'd appreciate hearing what you know and have learned about using this product.

>>@jobe01 wrote:

>>We use Promax Humagrow.

Was this product recommended to you for controlling root knot nematodes on daylilies? By whom? What research did they provide to support any claim that it would control the root knot nemas on your daylily plants?

>>You can apply it year round, but we apply it late summer/early fall, after all the plants have flowered.

The ProMax label indicates the product should be used on 15-20 day intervals throughout the growing season. Who recommended that 2 applications at the timing you used would be efficacious / adequate to control root knot nemas on daylilies?

The product requires being incorporated into the soil after or during application. What method of incorporation do you use?

>We find it works well,

What data have you collected to demonstrate to your satisfaction that it "works well"?

Does the S Carolina Dept of Agriculture require nematode testing? Which kinds do they test for?

Random WWW pictures of root knot nematodes on root systems other than daylilies are not relevant. The appearance on daylily roots is different. Do you have any images from roots of your daylilies?

Are you treating all 3 acres of daylilies? Are you using the lower recommended rate (1 gallon per acre) or higher rate (2 gallon per acre)?

I fully understand that controlling root knot nematodes is a daunting challenge especially, as you noted, with a perennial crop. Between those and now daylily rust, a warm climate is about the least desirable location for a daylily nursery. My sympathies on that, actually

After rust arrived, lifelong Floridians David Kirchhoff and Mort Morss took the drastic step of moving their entire business from Florida to Kentucky to escape the need for pesticides. I understood.

Pat
Using my middle name Ann wasn’t working well. Back to being one Pat among many others. 😄
Last edited by Hortaholic May 4, 2021 2:08 PM Icon for preview
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May 4, 2021 5:05 PM CST
Name: Bob
Northeast Florida (Zone 9a)
Could dormant decline in my Florida garden be traced to a greater nematode susceptibility by dormants? Not all nematode damage can be seen, but I will dig up a couple of declining dormants to check. I have seen some serious nematode damage in roses, tomatoes, and lantanas here in Florida. That's my theory and I will attempt to disprove it. PS. I always theorized it was a dormants inability to get needed sleep in Florida, now I am not so sure.
Last edited by bobjax May 4, 2021 5:16 PM Icon for preview

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