Daylilies forum→Defining "prebloom"

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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 20, 2021 8:42 AM CST
I do not think that it is possible to formally define the earliest scapes to appear and have the definition be biologically correct and not simply be arbitrary.

Both "evergreen"/evergrowing and "dormant"/deciduous daylilies flower in the same way. The technical term for the way they grow is sympodial. That means the growing point of a daylily produces leaves until it changes to become the scape. When that change starts a new growing point is formed and starts to produce its own leaves. That continues until that growing point becomes the next scape and so on. Daylilies do not require any signal from the environment for the growing point to change from producing leaves to becoming the scape.

During each growing season a particular daylily may either grow continuously or it may grow discontinuously. A daylily that is growing discontinuously takes a rest and does not produce any new visible leaves.

The number of leaves that any particular daylily grows between scapes will vary, although each genetically different daylily may have its own average number. That number will be affected by the growing conditions (environment) that the particular daylily experiences. The previous environment and growing conditions that the plant has experienced may have effects that linger into the next growing season (or more).

Depending on the growing conditions and the environment a daylily may or may not produce a visible scape during the growing season. If it does flower then the amount the new (replacement) growing point grows during that growing season may be different each year. The number of leaves that the growing point visibly produces after the scape may be different each year. If the plant ("growth axis") does not manage to produce a visible second scape during the growing season then it may produce a scape before any leaves in the next growing season. However, the number of visible leaves it produces in that next growing season before the earliest scape to appear becomes visible will vary. There would be no set number of leaves or set range for the number of leaves that would identify scapes as not being part of the distribution of scape appearance dates.

Scapes that appear early are simply scapes that have survived winter at a different "age" or developmental stage than is typical for the cultivar.

Since daylilies do not use environmental signals to switch from growing vegetatively (leaves only) to flowering there should be no consistent flowering season for specific daylilies in all locations. The qualifier to that might be if some environmental factor could reset the time to flowering somehow. As one example, if winter were to kill scapes of a certain age that would reset the flowering time.
Maurice
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Name: Char
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Char
Jun 21, 2021 9:53 AM CST

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From another thread....
Lyshack said:Have you ever felt like you were about to do something so stupid, that you know you shouldn't do it, yet you're going to do it anyway? don't do it... don't do it... ah, I'm doing it.

I'm doing a Tim Whistling Rolling on the floor laughing

admmad said: "I do not think that it is possible to formally define "prebloom" and have the definition be biologically correct and not simply be arbitrary."

admmad said:"Prebloom" scapes are simply scapes that have survived winter at a different "age" or developmental stage than is typical for the cultivar. "


Sounds like a pretty good start to a definition..........

Post from The thread "'Late Summer Breeze' way too early? or not?" in Daylilies forum

admmad said:
Or it can mean that the plant produced all the leaves associated with a scape in the previous year but winter arrived before it was able to grow/elongate the scape that year. The temperatures fell too low so it could not grow at the end of the previous year's growing season. The scape over-wintered successfully and was produced outside of a regular fan of leaves.
BUT
At the end of the previous year's growing season a plant may have produced almost all the leaves it needed to produce before elongating its scape. The next growing season it will complete the growth of the leaves by producing how ever many it was unable to produce the previous year and then elongate the scape.

That means a "pre-bloom) scape may have one leaf "below" it, or it may have two leaves "below" it [one on either side of the scape] or it may have three leaves, or four or five... up to almost the number of leaves it would have in its "normal" or "average" growth pattern.

Identifying a scape as a "pre-bloom" scape when it has no leaves below it (it is outside of a fan) seems reliable, Identifying a scape as a "pre-bloom" scape when it has one or two leaves "below" it would also seem reasonably reliable since no daylily cultivar is known that can produce a scape for every two leaves. After that, with each increase in the number of leaves below the scape it becomes more an more arbitrary whether the scape appeared in a "normal" position or might be a "pre-bloom" scape.


and an explanation of how daylily people have been using the term "prebloom" for 24 years or more. AHS/ADS frequently defines and identifies daylily specific terms. As always, definitions of this type would be under Scientific Studies Committee review. Perhaps they will look at it. I hope they do.
Name: Sue
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sooby
Jun 21, 2021 10:39 AM CST
Char said:
and an explanation of how daylily people have been using the term "prebloom" for 24 years or more. AHS/ADS frequently defines and identifies daylily specific terms. As always, definitions of this type would be under Scientific Studies Committee review. Perhaps they will look at it. I hope they do.


Typically requests for the SSC to look at definitions come from other AHS/ADS committees or the "suggest a term" submission form at the bottom of the Daylily Dictionary. The latter also allows for suggestions for the definition.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jun 21, 2021 1:36 PM CST
Thanks Sooby,

I had never even noticed that form being down there. So I went ahead and suggested it, at least maybe it will come up for consideration.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 21, 2021 5:16 PM CST
Since all daylily cultivars can rebloom, the time at which an early scape is going to appear will be dependent on the location and growing conditions of the plant.
Perhaps a better, but still arbitrary, method would be to use first flower open (ffo) dates to determine that a particular scape was outside of the normal range for the particular cultivar in the particular location and growing conditions. That would remove the arbitrariness of setting a particular leaf count as a cut-off point and replace it with the need to have a sufficiently stable estimate of ffo dates for the particular cultivar in its growing location. FFO dates would need to be recorded for each fan in clumps and for sufficient years to reliably estimate a cut-off value.
Maurice
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jun 21, 2021 5:43 PM CST
Why couldn't we use an "Initial Pre Bloom Scape" term to refer only the first "left over scape" scape to bloom before the normal bloom cycle begins, and only to a scape with no leaves below or above it. It seems there might be a series of scapes blooming sometimes leading up to the normal bloom cycle, but the term could be applied to only the first of those scapes, and that might save a lot of leaf counting, etc.?
Is that feasible?
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 21, 2021 8:15 PM CST
There are only "normal" bloom cycles in daylilies - all bloom cycles in daylilies are normal. The cycle in daylilies is for the growing point to turn into the scape. A new growing point is produced. The new growing point produces a number of leaves and then it becomes the next scape.

In one location (A) with a long growing season and optimum growing conditions a cultivar might usually produce three rounds of bloom per growing season.

That same cultivar in a different location (B) and with a shorter growing season and different growing conditions might usually produce two rounds of bloom per growing season.

That same cultivar in yet another different location (C) with yet a shorter growing season and with different growing conditions might usually produce only one round of bloom per growing season.

Low temperatures (winter) act to stop growth. The low temperatures may arrive at any point in the cycle of producing leaves to becoming the scape. Gardeners in location A think of the three cycles of bloom (1, 2, & 3) as the bloom period (1) and two reblooms (2) & (3). However, all the bloom cycles are the same. The gardeners in location two think of their bloom periods as one "normal" and one rebloom. However, there first bloom period, assumed to be the "normal" one may be bloom 3 or the second "rebloom" period. Their second bloom period or rebloom may be bloom (1) or what is considered to be the normal bloom period in location A.

The simplest way to look at flowering in daylilies is to discard the arbitrary designations of bloom and rebloom. Each daylily growing point simply has a time when it grows leaves and a time when it becomes the scape and produces the flowers. These times simply cycle endlessly throughout time with interruptions caused by winter (low temperatures) or other factors that stop growth. Growth simply continues where it left off when the cause of the stoppage is gone. There is nothing fundamentally different between flowering cycles. Each growth and flowering cycle will be affected by typical environmental conditions.

Consider a growing season in a location where a particular cultivar typically only has one round of bloom each year. In one year a fan is able to flower a second time just at the end of the growing season. The replacement growing point does not produce any leaves in that growing season. The next scape is produced in the next year (growing season) and has the average number of leaves appear. Compare that to the same situation but in the previous year the replacement growing point manages to produce half of the required number of leaves that it needs to do to produce the next scape. In the next year the scape that is produced only has half as many leaves as normal. It is no different from the year in which it had twice as many leaves except that it appears earlier than normal. That is true whether the growing point in the previous year manages to produce one quarter of the necessary leaves or three quarters of the necessary leaves or any fraction of the necessary leaves before growth stops.

Let's consider a location where the cultivar in question produces one scape in a growing season and then manages to produce one half of the necessary leaves for the next cycle of flowering before growth stops. That means the cultivar's normal growth and flowering pattern in the location is to produce half the necessary leaves in the previous growing season and half of them in the current growing season. Are all the scapes it produces actually outside of the distribution of scape appearance dates? There could be other cultivars that produce a smaller or greater fraction of their leaves in the previous growing season. The assumption that a "normal" bloom scape is produced from leaves that were grown in the same growing season may or may not be correct. It may depend on whether the particular fan (growth axis?) grew continuously or discontinuously in the previous growing season and what proportion of leaves it produced in the previous growing season for the next bloom cycle.

All scapes are "bloom" scapes. They are not produced in different ways. External factors may simply stop growth and development at different times during development and restart development at different times of the year. Any first cycle of bloom in a growing season may have been interrupted at some point in its development - not just ones that are arbitrarily designated as being unusually early. Only the second cycle of bloom in the same growing season is likely to not have been interrupted - those are typically what are called "rebloom". Yet they are likely to be the only bloom cycle that developed entirely in the same growing season. That means that most first bloom cycles in any growing season are likely to be extra early cycles since they partly developed in the previous growing season.
Maurice
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jun 21, 2021 8:58 PM CST
admmad said: That means that most first bloom cycles in any growing season are likely to be "pre-bloom" cycles since they partly developed in the previous growing season.

I certainly agree with that, but I see nothing wrong with arbitrarily naming the first scape that appears way before any of the others an "initial pre bloom scape". I think we all have had that odd scape that appeared maybe two weeks before the rest of a cluster of scapes appeared. I had one early on when I got into daylilies and did not know what it was, and spent the next few years expecting OPTICAL DELIGHT to bloom in March. Then it was explained to me that there were sometimes scapes that were left over from the previous year that would develop early in the current season and it was call...I don't actually remember, but something very close to pre bloom scape and that might have even been the termed used.
But that let me understand not to expect OPTICAL DELIGHT to normally bloom in March.
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 22, 2021 8:12 AM CST
@Seedfork
Calling an unusually early appearing scape with a designation, such as "pre-bloom" supports the idea that it is different in some "special" way from "bloom" scapes. It creates an artificial category from a characteristic that does not have separate categories. Although many daylily growers may be aware that the category is arbitrary others will not be and that may lead to misunderstandings, disagreements, etc. That may be something that is affected by whether the term has an official definition or not.

From a more pragmatic view, the term "pre-bloom" may be confusing and may not be biologically appropriate. All scapes are bloom scapes. They have flowers and bloom. One could have a pre-bloom leaf which one could compare with a post-bloom leaf but can one have a pre-bloom scape that one can compare with a post-bloom scape? I suspect that the SSC would find it difficult to accept "pre-bloom" as being scientifically or logically appropriate. The term "bloom" is not associated with a time period. Whenever a plant blooms it can be described as early, typical, late, normal, expected, etc. One could have an early scape versus a late scape. One could have an early scape versus an on-schedule scape. One could have an unexpected scape versus an expected scape.
Maurice
Name: Elena
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bxncbx
Jun 22, 2021 8:15 AM CST
I'm intrigued by this discussion. I'd assumed I'd only seen prebloom once in my garden. In 2017 I had Prickly Sensation develop a scape and bloom before my normal first bloomer, Butterscotch Ruffles. I had received PS late in 2016 so I assumed the scape started developing further south and stopped growing during winter. As soon as it warmed up it started growing again and because we had no late freezes that year was able to bloom. Despite a few mild winters PS has not developed another prebloom scape.

This year I'm seeing several daylilies develop a single scape and then later develop more scapes. But I hadn't considered that prebloom. It seems like the largest fan produced the first scape. Then after we have a good amount of rainfall the other scapes start to develop on the other fans. For example, After the Fall had its first scape recorded on June 5. A second scape was seen June 9. Five scapes were found June 12 and finally seven scapes were found June 14. I don't have a picture, but the first scape is twice as tall as all the other scapes and should bloom in a couple of days (if it rains today). None of the other scapes look like the will bloom any time soon. I just attributed the staggered scape development to environmental conditions (high temperatures and rainfall) not prebloom.
Name: Sue
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sooby
Jun 22, 2021 8:31 AM CST
admmad said:
I suspect that the SSC would find it difficult to accept "pre-bloom" as being scientifically or logically appropriate. The term "bloom" is not associated with a time period.


I checked the AHS Robin archives and use of the word "prebloom" goes back to 1997, funnily enough that mention was by a current member of the SSC.

The original intention of the Daylily Dictionary was to give new-to-daylilies people a way to find out what daylily people are talking about when they don't recognize a word. SSC is responsible for scientific terms and for making sure terminology is used correctly. In other plants it seems prebloom refers to the stage at which some treatment might be given before a plant flowers. In grapes apparently it means flower bud break. So there's an inconsistency there.

If prebloom doesn't make sense then nor does rebloom, how does the same flower flower again?

It's possible to write definitions with caveats or explanations. I think the difficulty with pre-bloom/prebloom is the concept that it is a scape that formed the previous year when that also applies to the normal season's scapes in many/most cases. That might require a lengthy explanation to avoid confusion and separate the two.

Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 22, 2021 8:35 AM CST
Something that I have noticed with the early scapes that have appeared here is that by the time they have their first flower open they seem to be much less early than they first appeared to be, in comparison to the later appearing scapes. That suggests that some (perhaps much) of their apparent earliness is an artifact.
Scapes take some time to develop to a size that makes them visible. When they develop outside of a fan they are not obscured by leaves and they become visible very early in their development. They also become visible earlier than typical in their development when they develop after one or two leaves. That biases the determination of their timing in comparison to scapes that develop after greater numbers of leaves in other fans.

For a valid comparison of the timing of early scapes it is probably not appropriate to use the time that they first become visible but the time they open their first flower. Or perhaps the time they reach a certain height compared with the time that other scapes of the same cultivar reached the same height.

Since early scapes can appear after no leaves, after one leaf, two, three, four, etc. removing any potential bias because of any differences in the visibility of the earliest scapes may help to show that they are no different than other scapes and not deserving of a special designation.
Maurice
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Seedfork
Jun 22, 2021 8:43 AM CST
I suppose that if the term "pre bloom scape" tends to lead to a scientifically wrong definition, then some other term should be used to define what we all are discussing as an extra early scape that appears before the main flush of scapes and began growth last season but appears in the early spring. There is no specific reason as far as I am concerned to have to use the term "pre bloom scape", so what do you suggest the descriptive term should be?
Edited to add: Sorry cross posted:
But in my case given in the example of OPTICAL DELIGHT the scape did bloom much earlier than the other later scapes giving me the false opinion that the plant would bloom much earlier each year than it actually does.
[Last edited by Seedfork - Jun 22, 2021 8:47 AM (+)]
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Name: Valerie
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touchofsky
Jun 22, 2021 8:56 AM CST
I agree This is an interesting discussion.

I have seen early scapes here a few times over the past few years. Our last frost date has been much later over the past several years, so maybe that is the reason.

This spring, I had two plants bloom very early. The first was a seedling and the second was Lavender Blue Baby. Lavender Blue Baby bloomed on June 11. The sdlg bloomed on June 6, which I would estimate to be about five weeks early. My bloom season generally starts around mid-July.

Both have sent up scapes that will bloom at what I would consider a more normal time.

Touch_of_sky on the LA
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 22, 2021 9:21 AM CST
@bxncbx

I think that the spread of your scape dates is normal variation. Normal variation often takes the form of the "normal" curve.
Thumb of 2021-06-22/admmad/89743b

But when timing is involved the variation can have a long "tail".
Thumb of 2021-06-22/admmad/4864d5

In either direction (we may not have sufficient information to know what daylilies do)
Thumb of 2021-06-22/admmad/c46d1d

Maurice
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 22, 2021 9:41 AM CST
Seedfork said:But in my case given in the example of OPTICAL DELIGHT the scape did bloom much earlier than the other later scapes giving me the false opinion that the plant would bloom much earlier each year than it actually does.


Yes, in that specific year there may have been only one such scape. However, if 'Optical Delight' had those sorts of early scapes in some other years then we could collect information about the timing of all its early scapes. We could then look at the overall timing of the early scapes and compare them to the timing of all the scapes.

Let's assume that we have collected information about the timing of an enormous number (thousands) of scapes of 'Optical Delight' so that we know how its scape appearance is actually distributed in time. Let's say that the true distribution of scapes with time is as shown in the first figure below.

Thumb of 2021-06-22/admmad/fd082f

In the year that it bloomed early for you the figure would look like the one below.

Thumb of 2021-06-22/admmad/236dca

The more years we record the date of such early scapes, the more information we have about their timing and the less different they appear to the usual variability in scape appearance. One example can make it seem as if the early scapes are extremely different from the normal scapes. But when we have information about a large enough number of early scapes we will be able to see that they are part of the normal variability in flowering behaviour.

Maurice
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 22, 2021 10:25 AM CST
In my opinion there should not be a special definition for extra early scapes or a special definition for "early" scapes. The timing of scape appearance varies and the early scapes are just part of the normal variability in that timing disregarding winter effects.

I have been growing daylilies inside continuously since September of 2019. The plants have not experienced winter since the winter of 2018-19. The timing of consecutive scapes has had no chance to be affected by winter cold. For one cultivar I have seen about 90 scapes appear. The number of leaves between consecutive scapes is quite variable and in one case has been a single leaf. The plants, which all began as single fan crowns and are reduced back to single fan crowns every now and then do not have a "normal" bloom period. They simply cycle between periods with only leaves and then a period with a scape.
Maurice
[Last edited by admmad - Jul 1, 2021 6:08 AM (+)]
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 22, 2021 10:28 AM CST
Seedfork said:But in my case given in the example of OPTICAL DELIGHT the scape did bloom much earlier than the other later scapes giving me the false opinion that the plant would bloom much earlier each year than it actually does.


Yes, a correction for any possible difference in the visibility of scapes (or using ffo) would not necessarily remove all the difference in timing but reduce it.

Maurice
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Jun 22, 2021 10:44 AM CST
@sooby
sooby said: In other plants it seems prebloom refers to the stage at which some treatment might be given before a plant flowers. In grapes apparently it means flower bud break. So there's an inconsistency there.


Is the grape usage actually inconsistent? In grapes is prebloom used to narrow the time before bloom (the time at which flowers open) to less than the entire time when flowers have not yet opened? Prebloom could be any length period of time during the growth of a plant as long as it was before the flowers opened.

sooby said: If prebloom doesn't make sense then nor does rebloom, how does the same flower flower again?


Prebloom can make sense if it is used to describe/define the period of time before the plant flowers. So daylily scapes can appear in the prebloom period, but both the earliest and the later scape appear in the prebloom period. Rebloom can make sense if it is used as a period of bloom that followed a period without bloom for the plant rather than the flower.

So a plant has a prebloom period before any flowers open. It can have a post-bloom period after the last flower of the first bloom period closed and it can have a rebloom period if flowers open after the post-bloom period.

All daylily scapes that appear before the first flower opens are prebloom.

Maurice
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SonoveShakespeare
Jun 22, 2021 10:56 AM CST
admmad said:"Prebloom" scapes are simply scapes that have survived winter at a different "age" or developmental stage than is typical for the cultivar.

Confused Confused Confused
I believe this definition would be more accurate in zones that have mild winter climates. I live in Nebraska, zone 5b and I've never had scapes survive our cold winters. Therefore, I've never had preblooms. The few mild winters I remember having caused daylily rust, not preblooms.

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