All Things Gardening forum: Seriously seeking ANSWERS from people with EXPERIENCE!

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crittergarden
Feb 17, 2013 12:59 PM CST
I've batted the subject of weed killers around for some time.
I haven't gotten any solid, known facts about them though.
Here comes Spring and I have some things I need to spray to get rid of.
Yes, I use cardboard under my beds, but I have a decades out of control fence line with Rose of Sharon and grapes that I need to KILL with something that will allow me to plant fruit trees there. And I have one friend with out of control Boston Ivy climbing her wall into her attic. There, a permanent kill would be fine.
If I can't hear from someone who can tell me about vinegar and/or ammonia and how to use them and how LONG before I can plant where I have used ammonia, I am going to use Roundup and risk the food chain. I'd rather be green, but I haven't gotten any solid answers.
I poured a full gallon of vinegar on my friend's Boston Ivy , at the wall, allowing it to trickle down the wall and into the roots - and it made not a dent.

I believe vinegar to poison the soil for a long long time.

I've heard that ammonia does break down into some sort of nitrate, but I can't get a clue as to how long that takes.

WHO HAS DONE THIS BEFORE AND WHAT WERE THE RESULTS????

HELP!!!! Blinking
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarden/thread/view/73275/
springfield MO area (Zone 6a)
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Frillylily
Feb 17, 2013 6:36 PM CST
In my experience if you want to get rid of the ivy, and it sounds very well established, you will need a brush killer and maybe have to do it more than once. I don't know of anything organic that will kill it out completely, and at least not in any reasonable amount of time. If it is located in the right kind of spot, you may be able to tie it with a chain and pull it out with a garden tractor or your vehicle, and even then small pieces may remain. However, depending on how rooted it is and how close to the building (house) pulling it could cause damage to the foundation. I have used vinegar before on things and did not see any results. I have no idea what it will do to soil long term.
Name: Margaret
Near Kamloops, BC, Canada (Zone 3a)
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mcash70
Feb 17, 2013 11:58 PM CST
Crittergarden I try and go green too, but there are times when you just have to use the roundup or some such product.

Hi Frilly, haven't seen you around for awhile. Smiling
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crittergarden
Feb 18, 2013 9:56 AM CST
Thanks.
I can't pull the ivy.
The brick wall of the house is only about 2 1/2 feet from a chain link fence belonging to the adjacent property.
One year, I cut it with a saw at about waist height (because it was the only comfortable position for me) and then drowned the in-ground part in Roundup. It came back....... This past year is when I tried the vinegar, to no effect.
If someone doesn't come up with an answer, I will cut again AND Roundup again, THEN the following week pour ammonia, THEN the following week, vinegar............. and repeat all summer.

I hope SOMEONE CAN TELL ME how long it takes for ammonia to derade so the space can be replanted.
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarden/thread/view/73275/
Name: Margaret
Near Kamloops, BC, Canada (Zone 3a)
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mcash70
Feb 18, 2013 10:10 AM CST
Crittergarden, I would spray before cutting the plants, the more foliage you have, the more roundup will be taken in and will get down into the roots to kill the plant.
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
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woofie
Feb 18, 2013 11:37 AM CST
I agree with Margaret about leaving the foliage on. I've also heard that those type of killers actually work better in the fall, something about the plant drawing in and storing nutrients for the winter? Of course, that doesn't help you now. And, I'd try using the extended control Roundup. It's not any stronger and doesn't work any faster (some people have that mistaken idea), but it definitely does inhibit new growth. Sort of like mixing Roundup with Preen.
I've never used ammonia, but I've tried using vinegar and salt in an area I have no intention of ever planting anything. It worked for a while, but stuff still grew back.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
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crittergarden
Feb 18, 2013 11:49 AM CST
SALT!!!!!
Oh thank you, Woof!!!
I had forgotten about SALT!!!!!
And it is in abundance now.

I'll do that NOW and then see what else I can do with the foliage killers.....
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarden/thread/view/73275/
Name: Margaret
Near Kamloops, BC, Canada (Zone 3a)
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mcash70
Feb 18, 2013 11:51 AM CST
Also don't expect to see it dead in a few days, it can take 2 or 3 weeks before you really see the results, so be patient. Whistling
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
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woofie
Feb 18, 2013 12:01 PM CST
Another suggestion I came across was just plain boiling water. Never tried it, but as long as you don't burn yourself, that at least wouldn't have any long term environmental effect.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Margaret
Near Kamloops, BC, Canada (Zone 3a)
Region: Canadian Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Tip Photographer Garden Ideas: Master Level I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Charter ATP Member
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mcash70
Feb 18, 2013 12:10 PM CST
Woofie, the only thing with the boiling water is it may not work with a plant that has extremely deep roots.
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crittergarden
Feb 18, 2013 12:12 PM CST
mcash70 said:Also don't expect to see it dead in a few days, it can take 2 or 3 weeks before you really see the results, so be patient. Whistling


Oh, I KNOW! I've been trying to kill the Boston Ivy for at least 5 YEARS now!!!!!

Boiling water sounds like a good plan for the fence line with grapes and Rose of Sharon that I'd like to replace with apple trees.

SO thanks for solving my immediate needs, y'all! Thumbs up

IF ANYONE ELSE READS THIS, I REMAIN WANTING FOR THE DETAILS ABOUT AMMONIA AND VINEGAR!!!!
I foresee needing this information in the future.
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarden/thread/view/73275/
Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
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woofie
Feb 18, 2013 12:14 PM CST
Yes, the article I read had to do with dandelions. And one drawback would be killing off just the foliage, so the chemical plant killer wouldn't work as well.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Karen
Cincinnati, Oh (Zone 6a)
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kqcrna
Feb 19, 2013 6:07 AM CST
I'd go with Roundup.

Do you intend to grow anything there anytime soon? If so, I'd avoid salt.

Boron is supposed to kill stuff, too, in large amounts. Dissolve large amount of borax in water and pour/spray it. However, I've heard that it will prevent anything from growing there for a long time, years. Never done it myself. I think some "home remedies" can become more lethal sometimes than the product you're trying to avoid. Anything that you pour on your soil can spread out and kill unintended things, like other shrubs, flowers, or lawn. Things that you spray on foliage should have more limited effects. If you have clay soil, it can hold things for years.

Maybe your state extension office could advise you. But like I said, I'd reach for the Roundup. I always feel it works best in spring, as new tender growth emerges.

Karen

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crittergarden
Feb 19, 2013 6:17 AM CST
I hate to put Roundup into the food chain.

ONE situation can be permanent and wouldn't hurt anything if it spread some. I'm thinking sidewalk salt for that one now, thanks to Woofie.

The OTHER situation I want to replace junk with fruit trees.
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarden/thread/view/73275/
Name: Karen
Cincinnati, Oh (Zone 6a)
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kqcrna
Feb 19, 2013 7:26 AM CST
Admittedly, I'm a rookie, which is why I suggested you contact your extension office. I've taken a heck of a lot of science classes in my life but they were all related to chemistry and physics, human anatomy and physiology, pharmacology. Amazing that I was never required to learn anything about plants. More amazing yet that I manage to have a pretty garden most of the time. Hilarious!

I tried to have an all-organic yard for quite a few years, and it was awful. Weeds and bugs were taking over. And I discovered that most organic information I found was impassioned anecdotal evidence rather that actual scientific research. I guess I don't know where to look?

I still try to keep my yard at least earth friendly if not strictly organic. I don't use pesticides or strong chemical fertilizers. I stick to more natural based stuff like fish fert, some Espoma products, and compost. But I no longer rule out a little Roundup or Preen. And while I haven't resorted to using pesticides again, the bugs are winning the battle so far.

Karen

Name: woofie
NE WA (Zone 5a)
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woofie
Feb 19, 2013 10:14 AM CST
I checked on the Roundup web site and if you use their normal Super Concentrate, you only have to wait a few days before it's safe to plant edibles. They have a nastier version that's for poison ivy and persistent shrubs, but you have to wait a whole year if you use it. I personally would go with the Roundup. The only reason I tried the salt and vinegar treatment was that it was an area accessible to my dog. I used straight vinegar and table salt and it killed off the grass and weeds for about the same length of time as normal Roundup.
Confidence is that feeling you have right before you do something really stupid.
Name: Jennifer
48036 MI (Zone 6b)
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jvdubb
Feb 19, 2013 11:28 AM CST
I would use the Roundup.

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/glyphos.pdf

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crittergarden
Feb 19, 2013 12:17 PM CST
kqcrna said:Admittedly, I'm a rookie, which is why I suggested you contact your extension office. I've taken a heck of a lot of science classes in my life but they were all related to chemistry and physics, human anatomy and physiology, pharmacology. Amazing that I was never required to learn anything about plants. More amazing yet that I manage to have a pretty garden most of the time. Hilarious!

I tried to have an all-organic yard for quite a few years, and it was awful. Weeds and bugs were taking over. And I discovered that most organic information I found was impassioned anecdotal evidence rather that actual scientific research. I guess I don't know where to look?

I still try to keep my yard at least earth friendly if not strictly organic. I don't use pesticides or strong chemical fertilizers. I stick to more natural based stuff like fish fert, some Espoma products, and compost. But I no longer rule out a little Roundup or Preen. And while I haven't resorted to using pesticides again, the bugs are winning the battle so far.

Karen



I think you understand where I'm coming from. I have never ruled out Roundup but have used it as sparingly as possible. I used to say, "I'm not ABOVE Roundup but I only use it when I can't figure out another way". Working forward, I'd like to DECREASE my dependence on it. I now live smack in the city of Pittsburgh, which has a hideous environmental past. I used to live in a place where human impact was far far less. In other words, I want to personally be cleaner because my environment is dirtier. (I MUST say here that today's Pittsburghers are light years ahead of their elders in terms of green thinking. But I live in a house built in 1920 for probably miners' families and I still find broken galss, rusted metal, etc etc etc every time I dig anywhere in my yard. Don't even want to THINK about what fell with the rain before the steel mills went down.....)

I have never seen a frog or a toad on my small city lot. My friend's lot where I'm trying to kill Boston Ivy is even more urban - wedged between a house and an industrial building that faces a busy city street, I have no HOPE for frogs/toads there. SO salt is OK. THAT particular spot will not recover without bulldozing and the addition of several feet of good clean soil. Heck, there's only about 3 feet of ground between my friend's house and the asphalt parking lot of the building backing up to her house.

But the fence line on my OWN lot, I would like to replace rampant grapes in rampant Rose of Sharon with APPLE TREES, so I cannot use anything that will harm the trees.

I also think you understand that I want a firm SCIENTIFIC answer to my question so I can extrapolate it to my own situation.

CAN ANYBODY HELP A GREENIE OUT?????
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarden/thread/view/73275/
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crittergarden
Feb 19, 2013 12:24 PM CST
"Heck, there's only about 3 feet of ground between my friend's house and the asphalt parking lot of the building backing up to her house."

THAT being the 3 feet where the ivy is.

AND - although I don't have frogs or toads at my own house, I DO have deer, racoons, groundhogs, and wild turkeys, thanks to a finger of woods no wider than a city street running behind my house, thanks to the hillyness here. I live near a BIG drop off, too steep to build on, at least in 1920, so there are woods. And in 1920, they LEFT a finger between the newly built city streets.

SO I wish to help HEAL rather than do harm..
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarden/thread/view/73275/
Surprisingly GREEN Pittsburgh (Zone 6a)
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crittergarden
Feb 19, 2013 12:24 PM CST
Hope Rick comes back.
I ranted.
Hilarious!
SHOW ME YOUR CRITTERS! I have a critter page over at Cubits. http://cubits.org/crittergarden/thread/view/73275/

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