Daylilies forum→Writing daylily crosses

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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
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Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 21, 2021 3:36 PM CST
I have asked this question before and someone replied, but I can't find that info. What is the proper procedure for using parenthesis when writing a daylily cross? I thought I had learned that, but it seems I have not.
I saw a photo recently of SWORD OF JUSTICE , the pattern appealed to me and I was looking at the cross: Gathering of Nations x ((Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine) x Trials of Job.
That does not look right to me, I keep thinking that there should be a double )) somewhere in that cross to correspond with the first (( .
Is this written correctly, and if not how should it be written?
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jul 21, 2021 3:49 PM CST
I think it is right but it is very difficult to explain Hilarious!

The pollen parent is Trials of Job.

If we give the seedling 'Inscribed on My Heart' x 'Chariot of Clouds' a name, say Larry.....then the pod parent is a seedling cross of 'Gathering of Nations' with a seedling that is 'Larry' x 'Entwined in the Vine'.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 21, 2021 4:27 PM CST
Thanks,
Are there written directions somewhere for this?
It just does not seem clear to me how that is written, I guess because I don't know the rules.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
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sooby
Jul 21, 2021 4:50 PM CST
Seedfork said: Thanks,
Are there written directions somewhere for this?
It just does not seem clear to me how that is written, I guess because I don't know the rules.


The only place I can think of is in the registration instructions, where it may look a bit easier to follow because they are using letters for the examples. You need to scroll down to "pod and pollen parent".

https://links.imagerelay.com/c...

I remember it from being a volunteer entering the data from the checklists for the original AHS CD and those with complicated parentage were a bit more challenging! As it says in the registration instructions, parentage is optional but I think most people appreciate the effort to include it.

Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 21, 2021 5:27 PM CST
(Gathering of Nations x (Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine))) x Trials of Job.
This looks better to me, am I wrong in how I am reading this.


Name: Char
Vermont (Zone 4b)
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Char
Jul 21, 2021 5:56 PM CST

Moderator

Pretty sure....

sdlg #1 (Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds)
sdlg #2 ((Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine)
sdlg #3 (Gathering of Nations x ((Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine))

Sword of Justice
(Gathering of Nations x ((Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine)) X Trials of Job

Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 21, 2021 6:24 PM CST
I think before I looked at the examples I would have written it the way Char did with the double )) added, but after looking at the examples it did not seem to show it that way. Surely there must be some place this is shown in detail as to how it is to be written?
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
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SunriseSide
Jul 21, 2021 6:48 PM CST
The #s of left and right parentheses have to match to be able to read correctly. I have seem some with mismatches that makes lineage tracking confusing at best. Extra parentheses add no value.
Life is better at the lake.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 21, 2021 7:04 PM CST
I felt the same about the matching parenthesis but that does not appear to be the way the examples show.
Name: Nancy
Bowling Green Kentucky (Zone 6b)
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alilyfan
Jul 21, 2021 7:19 PM CST
Looking at it, I would assume that Gathering of Nations x (seedling of combined in parentheses) x Trials of Job
Seems to me there is parenthesis absent unless you have 3 direct parents, but I am easily confused these days Whistling Sighing!
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
Greenhouse Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Garden Photography Hybridizer Region: Michigan
Irises Hostas Region: Texas Daylilies Peonies
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SunriseSide
Jul 21, 2021 7:25 PM CST
I agree with Char's presentation regardless of what the examples may show.
Life is better at the lake.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Jul 22, 2021 4:40 AM CST
This is how it is written in the AHS database (NGA is the same but leaves off the two either end brackets).

(Gathering of Nations x ((Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine) × Trials of Job)

I can't find a clearer way of doing it because bolding the pairs of parentheses doesn't show clearly, but substituting numbers for each pair gives:

1(Gathering of Nations x 23Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds3 x Entwined in the Vine2 × Trials of Job)1

Does that help?

Edit, so corrected that should be
1(Gathering of Nations x 23Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds3 x Entwined in the Vine 21 x Trials of Job

Did I get it right this time?
[Last edited by sooby - Jul 22, 2021 7:15 AM (+)]
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Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 22, 2021 6:03 AM CST
I think the problem is in the use of what you called the "either end brackets". I am thinking most of use are considering those to be parenthesis and we are trying to follow the rules for using those we were talk in school... just a few years ago. Plus I was trying to follow the examples, but they just don't make any sense. I thought maybe there were some written rules for writing crosses that were different than the rules for using parenthesis, now I don't believe there are and that I should just go back to writing them so they make sense to me and a few others of us and that is how Char shows it and how Dave reads it and how I think it should be written. I think the examples are just wrong and should be corrected.
If I am wrong in this let me know.
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Daylilies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Native Plants and Wildflowers Butterflies Annuals
Region: Canadian Keeps Horses Dog Lover Plant Identifier Garden Sages
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sooby
Jul 22, 2021 6:30 AM CST
Karol uses different forms of brackets/parentheses/whatever on her page for 'Sword of Justice'. (Sorry I did not go to school in the US so I may be confusing brackets with parentheses because I learned the former).

[Gathering of Nations x {(Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine}] x Trials of Job

http://springwoodgardens.com/i...

So I do see what you mean. The printed checklist is the same as the AHS database entry (and the NGA parentage without the end () ) so their end ) is wrong.
[Last edited by sooby - Jul 22, 2021 7:06 AM (+)]
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Name: Elena
NYC (Zone 7a)
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bxncbx
Jul 22, 2021 7:03 AM CST
Sue, that makes way more sense to me as that is how I was taught. Too many parentheses just makes for confusion!
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 22, 2021 11:21 AM CST
I guess my takeaway from this is that maybe there should be some standard form set for showing parentage, but I am good with either:
(Gathering of Nations x ((Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine)) X Trials of Job
[Gathering of Nations x {(Inscribed on My Heart x Chariot of Clouds) x Entwined in the Vine}] x Trials of Job
At least those two I can follow. Of course I would prefer Char's method, but Karol's would be fine also.
Name: Larry
Enterprise, Al. 36330 (Zone 8b)
Composter Daylilies Garden Photography Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Region: Alabama
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Seedfork
Jul 26, 2021 2:56 PM CST
Well, I thought the example given on the ADS registration instruction page was a bunch of hocus pocus or some sort of typographical mistake. So I posted on the Robin to see if I could find out if others understood the hybridizer language for how to properly write out crosses. To my surprise there actually is a method to the madness.
Ginny Pearce was kind enough to help me see through the smoke screen: Still a little foggy but looking much clearer now. She sent me an example and color coded the parenthesis by 'F1', 'F2', 'F3' and 'F4' to help me understand the lingo of hybridizers written out crosses for registration and record keeping purposes. What I thought just could not possibly be correct and made absolutely no sense seems to be the approved method of doing this.
I was hoping the colors would show up better, but if you squint hard enough once you have enlarged this the colors can be made out. Love some comments if you figure out how to read it?
Thumb of 2021-07-26/Seedfork/0d18e3
I can make sense of it using the color coded version, still having trouble without the color codes.

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