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Avatar for ArleenA
Jul 23, 2021 1:43 PM CST
Allentown, New Jersey
I'm in Allentown N.J. Zone 7 now with climate change.
I bought a white daylily supposedly Joan Senior, but suspect it can't be Joan Senior because it's not an early bloomer. It's the last one blooming in my yard, after Hyperion. All other characteristics, size, color, and height line up with Joan Senior except bloom time. Can it really be Joan Senior if it blooms so late?

If it isn't Joan…what are the other possibilities? I've searched the web for similar looking whites, but they are always the wrong height, bloom size, or are early bloomers!
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Jul 24, 2021 5:21 AM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Welcome!
If you could post a picture it might help but another option would be to use the advanced search on the American Hemerocallis Society's website. I put in white for the colour and very late (just late is also an option) and came up with several results, including 'Lime Frost' and 'Sagamartha'.

AHS advanced search
https://www.daylilies.org/Dayl...
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Jul 24, 2021 6:12 AM CST
Name: Sue
Austria
Daylilies Roses Irises Cat Lover Bee Lover Bookworm
Region: Europe
Is the plant always late or is this the first year flowering?
New plants sometimes tend to flower 'out of time' for 2-3 years in my garden. Very late near whites are rare - and most of them are not similar to Joan Senior; Sagarmatha is the only one I know - but it is definitely whiter and should be a little bit higher than Joan Senior - and as far as I know it is rather rare and hard to get.
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Jul 24, 2021 6:17 AM CST
Name: Nan
southeast Georgia (Zone 8b)
Birds Bookworm Butterflies Composter Daylilies Region: Georgia
Keeps Horses Enjoys or suffers hot summers
I'm with Sue--if this is a new plant, my guess is that it's a Joan Senior that is settling in.
Avatar for Eagleriver
Jul 24, 2021 6:37 AM CST

I'm near Gettysburg and my Joan senior a new plant is just finishing up blooming
Avatar for ArleenA
Jul 24, 2021 10:42 PM CST
Allentown, New Jersey
I've had this plant for 20 years. It was one of the first daylilys I ever bought. It is always a late bloomer. I'm not a hybridizer, just have a back yard suburban garden. I became enamored of daylilys and now have 40 named cultivars in my small yard. I recently began marking each plant with name tags and realized this white was one of 3 that I can't identify. I looked at the sagarmanth image and thought it was a possibility. Thanks for your help! I love all of your pictures of seedlings and varieties don't have.

Thumb of 2021-07-25/ArleenA/00f00e
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Jul 25, 2021 7:13 AM CST
Name: Vickie
southern Indiana (Zone 6b)
Bee Lover Garden Photography Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Daylilies Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Region: United States of America
Region: Indiana Garden Art Annuals Clematis Cottage Gardener Garden Ideas: Level 2
Welcome to the forums, ArleenA!

Joan Senior was Plant of the Day in the daylily forum here, so thought you might like to read what others have to say about it:
The thread "Daylily of the Day: Joan Senior" in Plants of the Day forum

I did a search in the AHS database as Sue mentioned and also only came up with 'Lime Frost' and Sagarmatha' as possibilities since they were late blooming. Many of the results did not have pictures.

I don't have Joan Senior, but have been looking at the texture of the daylilies in your picture and these are some qualities that I've noticed: creped texture, slightly recessed midribs, no edge. Your picture sure looks a lot like Joan Senior compared to the photos in the database here. Comparing your picture to photos from the database here, I thought I would point out some things I noticed about Sagarmatha and Lime Frost.

1) Sagarmatha appears creped, but the midribs seem raised (not sure if that means anything). No edge.
2) Lime Frost appears creped, most pictures show the midribs raised, but it seems like almost all of the pictures showed a slight greenish tint around the outside of the petals.

Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Sagarmatha')
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Lime Frost')

Sometimes the only thing to do is to buy what you think it is and compare them growing in your own garden. I have had daylilies with no name and no tag for several years, but keep them anyway just because I love them.
May all your weeds be wildflowers. ~Author Unknown
Last edited by blue23rose Jul 25, 2021 7:16 AM Icon for preview
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Jul 25, 2021 7:40 AM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Since it's after 'Hyperion' which is M, it might be worth including the L's in addition to VLs in a search. That brought up a lot more pages and a few more whites but I didn't look at each one to see if it was a match.

Not sure if anything in this recent thread might help:

Stuart Kendig's White Daylily Project
The thread "Stuart Kendig's White Daylily Project" in Daylilies forum
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Jul 25, 2021 7:43 AM CST
Name: Sue
Austria
Daylilies Roses Irises Cat Lover Bee Lover Bookworm
Region: Europe
blue23rose said:
1) Sagarmatha appears creped, but the midribs seem raised (not sure if that means anything). No edge.
2) Lime Frost appears creped, most pictures show the midribs raised, but it seems like almost all of the pictures showed a slight greenish tint around the outside of the petals.

Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Sagarmatha')
Daylily (Hemerocallis 'Lime Frost')


Lime Frost is a tetraploid cultivar - the tissue of the flower itself is thicker than it is on any near white diploid cultivar I know.

If you just try some pollinations - with diploid and with tetraploid cultivars - you can find out, which one is yours. I assume you have a diploid one - the look is quite different, the flower is much more transparent - if I look at your picure the flower reminds me on White Temptation.
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Jul 25, 2021 7:53 AM CST
Name: Jill
Baltimore, MD (Zone 7b)
Daylilies Hellebores Cat Lover Region: Maryland Garden Photography Butterflies
Bee Lover
It sure looks like Joan Senior to me. The blooms look just like mine.
Could there be some weird micro-climate thing going on to make this clump a bit pokey?
Avatar for hawkeye_daddy
Jul 25, 2021 8:04 AM CST
SE Iowa
Ice Carnival is blooming now for me. Stats are similar to Joan Senior, but it blooms later.
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Jul 25, 2021 9:18 AM CST
Name: Nancy
Bowling Green Kentucky (Zone 6b)
Lime Frost is listed as a late, but mine has always bloomed with the mid to mid lates.
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Jul 26, 2021 5:13 PM CST
Name: Justine
Maryville, Tennessee (Zone 7a)
Hybridizer Cat Lover Birds Daylilies Tropicals Farmer
Apples Peonies Irises Lilies Deer Greenhouse
I was wondering if it could be White Perfection, but it does look more like Joan Senior.

Was it sold/given to you as Joan Senior? If so, I'm guessing that it is a selfed child of Joan Senior (which is pod and pollen fertile.) A long time ago, the grower's clump set a bee pollen pod with its own pollen. Without deadheading, the seed quietly drooped into the clump and started growing, developing into a mature fan or three but looking like a part of the clump and resembling the parent enough to escape detection. Clump gets divided and it's sold as Joan Senior, but this child has later blooming characteristics from the great genetic dice-roll. sort of like what folks think happened with Stella D' Oro (some plants having lost the bodacious mega rebloom because of all the spontaneous bee seeds in the mix).
I wonder why no one ever told me
that the rainbow and the treasure
were both within me. -- Gerald G. Jampolsky, M.D.
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Jul 26, 2021 11:12 PM CST
Name: Zoia Bologovsky
Stoneham MA (Zone 6a)
Bee Lover Birds Butterflies Cat Lover Daylilies Region: Massachusetts
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Justine, that's the case with my Stella D'Oro… I've long suspected that's it's a seedling as it only blooms very early.

My Lime Frost is also a Mid to MidLate bloomer. Never Late or Very Late. Blooming today…
Thumb of 2021-07-27/Zoia/58cc22
Avatar for ArleenA
Jul 27, 2021 9:13 AM CST
Allentown, New Jersey
Thanks for all your help in solving my naming dilemma. The plant was sold to me by a reputable Missouri grower as Joan Senior. Almost all the other plants from this grower seem true to their names.Your suggestions have spurred me to look up the bloom times of all my daylilys. What I thought of as late plants were really mid-late varieties. In my zone 7a garden Doc Reaver, Marque Moon, Spanish Glow, Spellbinder (all ML) have been blooming for a while, and Joan is just beginning to bloom. It's usually the last one with flowers so I thought of it as late. I realize now that I don't own any really late daylilys. This has been a learning curve for me. Thanks for your patience in educating me! I'm inclined to agree with Justine's theory of a self(bee) pollinated variation and will be labeling the plant as Joan Senior. Let me apologize for my ignorance and thank you for all the suggestions and for spurring me to be more accurate with my garden collection!
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Jul 27, 2021 9:29 AM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Sages Plant Identifier
ArleenA said: I'm inclined to agree with Justine's theory of a self(bee) pollinated variation and will be labeling the plant as Joan Senior. Let me apologize for my ignorance and thank you for all the suggestions and for spurring me to be more accurate with my garden collection!


If it is from a dropped seed of 'Joan Senior' then strictly speaking it would not be a 'Joan Senior' since the pollen parent would not be known. I don't think it is very likely that it is selfed, but even then it would still not be 'Joan
Senior' since JS is a hybrid rather than a species.
Avatar for ArleenA
Jul 27, 2021 9:59 AM CST
Allentown, New Jersey
So I should just keep it labeled "Noid white" to be accurate? Can do.
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Jul 27, 2021 10:30 AM CST
Name: Nan
southeast Georgia (Zone 8b)
Birds Bookworm Butterflies Composter Daylilies Region: Georgia
Keeps Horses Enjoys or suffers hot summers
ArleenA said:So I should just keep it labeled "Noid white" to be accurate? Can do.


Maybe call it "Joan Senior seedling"?
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Jul 27, 2021 11:06 AM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Sages Plant Identifier
I'm not sure I would totally rule it out as being 'Joan Senior' itself since everyone thinks it look like it, and the stats match. I used to have JS and I just dug out the FFO list I did years ago when I still had it, and that year its FFO was 20th July. I did not have 'Hyperion' then but I do now and it has been flowering for quite a while.
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Jul 27, 2021 12:01 PM CST
Name: Justine
Maryville, Tennessee (Zone 7a)
Hybridizer Cat Lover Birds Daylilies Tropicals Farmer
Apples Peonies Irises Lilies Deer Greenhouse
Yes, it could still be Joan S. Making friends with uncertainty is part of the game. Thinking When we solve puzzles, it's awesome (like the time I identified a NOID as El Desperado. SO satisfying!) But sometimes we won't be able to figure it out. That's okay. Arleen, you're good at paying attention and being conscientious.
I wonder why no one ever told me
that the rainbow and the treasure
were both within me. -- Gerald G. Jampolsky, M.D.

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