Daylilies forum→Would there be interest in tetraploid a Europa kid?

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Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
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Dennis616
Jul 26, 2021 12:34 PM CST
Years ago on this forum I recall someone saying that every year they kept trying to set pods on Europa (the ditch daylily) but never got any. I was intrigued and starting doing that myself. I have a patch of about a dozen plants of Europa and every year I put tet pollen on them hoping to get viable seeds. Haven't gotten any yet. But I was thinking-- what if I did?

I believe putting tet pollen on it would most likely result in a tet-- Would a tet kid from Europa be exciting or interesting to people? A Europa kid would be fairly rare, though I do see 11 officially registered kids. Would it have to be a particularly unique bloom to generate interest, or would its closeness to the species alone make it of interest? Europa is one incredibly tough plant so it would seem possible if not likely that its kids could also be exceptionally tough. Perhaps that would generate interest.
I know I would feel some excitement about getting some viable seeds, just curious what the general interest in a tet Europa kid might be. Any thoughts?

Thumb of 2021-07-26/Dennis616/33c916 Europa

[Last edited by Dennis616 - Jul 26, 2021 12:35 PM (+)]
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Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
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sooby
Jul 26, 2021 12:48 PM CST
Well as you say there are some registered tetraploids from 'Europa' and some where the parent is just listed as H. fulva, so could be 'Europa', already. Maybe look them up in the NGA database, that might show how many people have them and thus whether there is much interest. I guess we don't know whether the ploidy has been confirmed as tetraploid for the already registered ones.

Just out of curiosity I tried 'Kwanso' pollen on 'Europa' this year on the basis that both are triploid. Not many because I only thought of it as bloom was winding down, but none that I tried took.
Name: Sue
Austria
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Region: Europe
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Nightlily
Jul 26, 2021 12:51 PM CST
Dennis616 said:Would a tet kid from Europa be exciting or interesting to people? A Europa kid would be fairly rare, though I do see 11 officially registered kids. Would it have to be a particularly unique bloom to generate interest, or would its closeness to the species alone make it of interest? Europa is one incredibly tough plant so it would seem possible if not likely that its kids could also be exceptionally tough. Perhaps that would generate interest.
I know I would feel some excitement about getting some viable seeds, just curious what the general interest in a tet Europa kid might be. Any thoughts?

Thumb of 2021-07-26/Dennis616/33c916 Europa



There are some diploid H. fulva clones available - all are quite the same invasive as the triploid version is (in my garden I grow H. fulva rosea and H. fulva littorea - both diplois). I think it would be easier to convert these into tetraploids, if you want to create a species-like looking tet plant. As far as I know they all flower at least a little later and a little longer as the triploids (Europa and Kwanso).

Gil Stelter from Gryphon Garden works on H. fulva hybrids and has a great knowledge about the hole issue (he identified one of my 'fulvous plants' as Margaret Perry); he did what you want to do several times successfully - maybe he can help you with his experience?

http://www.gryphongardens.ca/c...

I grow some seedlings out of Gryphon Stanley Saxton (a tetraploid seedling out of a fulva clone) - up to now they are not really special (two example):

Thumb of 2021-07-26/Nightlily/b26f13

[Last edited by Nightlily - Jul 26, 2021 12:53 PM (+)]
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Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
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Dennis616
Jul 26, 2021 1:17 PM CST
Nightlily said:
There are some diploid H. fulva clones available

Gil Stelter from Gryphon Garden works on H. fulva hybrids and has a great knowledge about the hole issue (he identified one of my 'fulvous plants' as Margaret Perry); he did what you want to do several times successfully - maybe he can help you with his experience?


Thanks for this info! Thumbs up

I have seen what Stelter has been doing, and maybe he's on to something and generating a lot of interest. Shrug! This really is just a fun "side project" for me-- and am just curious if I was successful that maybe the resulting kids would generate interest and I should make it a focus Shrug!

Every year lots of pods start but quickly abort. Every year a couple hang on longer, teasing me, but eventually abort....
Name: Sue
Austria
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Nightlily
Jul 26, 2021 1:34 PM CST
Dennis616 said:

Thanks for this info! Thumbs up

I have seen what Stelter has been doing, and maybe he's on to something and generating a lot of interest. Shrug! This really is just a fun "side project" for me-- and am just curious if I was successful that maybe the resulting kids would generate interest and I should make it a focus Shrug!

Every year lots of pods start but quickly abort. Every year a couple hang on longer, teasing me, but eventually abort....


If you could get Pollen of Heavenly New Frontiers (pentaploid), this might work.
My experience in crossing with species is: most of the seedlings are disappointing - if there is something special still hidden in their genetics you need a lot of patience to bring it out.

Growing like weed is not really a feature for a garden plant - making runners and spreading through beds like H. fulva Europa isn't either.
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
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Dennis616
Jul 26, 2021 2:34 PM CST
Nightlily said:
My experience in crossing with species is: most of the seedlings are disappointing - if there is something special still hidden in their genetics you need a lot of patience to bring it out.


That is what I suspected might be the case. Unless a Europa seedling was a particularly great or intriguing bloom I almost certainly wouldn't pursure working with it...

Nightlily said:
Growing like weed is not really a feature for a garden plant - making runners and spreading through beds like H. fulva Europa isn't either.


Hilarious! Good points! I guess if a Europa seedling lost the invasiveness but kept the toughness it might be interesting...

Name: Sue
Austria
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Region: Europe
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Nightlily
Jul 26, 2021 2:49 PM CST
Dennis616 said:

That is what I suspected might be the case. Unless a Europa seedling was a particularly great or intriguing bloom I almost certainly wouldn't pursure working with it...


Don't forget about the bud count! H. fulva Europa flowers only 2 weeks in our region - the best cultivars here flower 2 monts! Whistling


Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
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SunriseSide
Jul 26, 2021 7:13 PM CST
I've got three small [so far] pods on Europa × Always Afternoon this year. We'll see what happens.🧐
Life is better at the lake.

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