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Jul 26, 2021 12:34 PM CST
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
Years ago on this forum I recall someone saying that every year they kept trying to set pods on Europa (the ditch daylily) but never got any. I was intrigued and starting doing that myself. I have a patch of about a dozen plants of Europa and every year I put tet pollen on them hoping to get viable seeds. Haven't gotten any yet. But I was thinking-- what if I did?

I believe putting tet pollen on it would most likely result in a tet-- Would a tet kid from Europa be exciting or interesting to people? A Europa kid would be fairly rare, though I do see 11 officially registered kids. Would it have to be a particularly unique bloom to generate interest, or would its closeness to the species alone make it of interest? Europa is one incredibly tough plant so it would seem possible if not likely that its kids could also be exceptionally tough. Perhaps that would generate interest.
I know I would feel some excitement about getting some viable seeds, just curious what the general interest in a tet Europa kid might be. Any thoughts?

Thumb of 2021-07-26/Dennis616/33c916 Europa
Last edited by Dennis616 Jul 26, 2021 12:35 PM Icon for preview
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Jul 26, 2021 12:48 PM CST
Name: Sue
Ontario, Canada (Zone 4b)
Annuals Native Plants and Wildflowers Keeps Horses Dog Lover Daylilies Region: Canadian
Butterflies Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Garden Sages Plant Identifier
Well as you say there are some registered tetraploids from 'Europa' and some where the parent is just listed as H. fulva, so could be 'Europa', already. Maybe look them up in the NGA database, that might show how many people have them and thus whether there is much interest. I guess we don't know whether the ploidy has been confirmed as tetraploid for the already registered ones.

Just out of curiosity I tried 'Kwanso' pollen on 'Europa' this year on the basis that both are triploid. Not many because I only thought of it as bloom was winding down, but none that I tried took.
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Jul 26, 2021 12:51 PM CST
Name: Sue
Austria
Daylilies Roses Irises Cat Lover Bee Lover Bookworm
Region: Europe
Dennis616 said:Would a tet kid from Europa be exciting or interesting to people? A Europa kid would be fairly rare, though I do see 11 officially registered kids. Would it have to be a particularly unique bloom to generate interest, or would its closeness to the species alone make it of interest? Europa is one incredibly tough plant so it would seem possible if not likely that its kids could also be exceptionally tough. Perhaps that would generate interest.
I know I would feel some excitement about getting some viable seeds, just curious what the general interest in a tet Europa kid might be. Any thoughts?

Thumb of 2021-07-26/Dennis616/33c916 Europa



There are some diploid H. fulva clones available - all are quite the same invasive as the triploid version is (in my garden I grow H. fulva rosea and H. fulva littorea - both diplois). I think it would be easier to convert these into tetraploids, if you want to create a species-like looking tet plant. As far as I know they all flower at least a little later and a little longer as the triploids (Europa and Kwanso).

Gil Stelter from Gryphon Garden works on H. fulva hybrids and has a great knowledge about the hole issue (he identified one of my 'fulvous plants' as Margaret Perry); he did what you want to do several times successfully - maybe he can help you with his experience?

http://www.gryphongardens.ca/c...

I grow some seedlings out of Gryphon Stanley Saxton (a tetraploid seedling out of a fulva clone) - up to now they are not really special (two example):

Thumb of 2021-07-26/Nightlily/b26f13
Last edited by Nightlily Jul 26, 2021 12:53 PM Icon for preview
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Jul 26, 2021 1:17 PM CST
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
Nightlily said:
There are some diploid H. fulva clones available

Gil Stelter from Gryphon Garden works on H. fulva hybrids and has a great knowledge about the hole issue (he identified one of my 'fulvous plants' as Margaret Perry); he did what you want to do several times successfully - maybe he can help you with his experience?


Thanks for this info! Thumbs up

I have seen what Stelter has been doing, and maybe he's on to something and generating a lot of interest. Shrug! This really is just a fun "side project" for me-- and am just curious if I was successful that maybe the resulting kids would generate interest and I should make it a focus Shrug!

Every year lots of pods start but quickly abort. Every year a couple hang on longer, teasing me, but eventually abort....
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Jul 26, 2021 1:34 PM CST
Name: Sue
Austria
Daylilies Roses Irises Cat Lover Bee Lover Bookworm
Region: Europe
Dennis616 said:

Thanks for this info! Thumbs up

I have seen what Stelter has been doing, and maybe he's on to something and generating a lot of interest. Shrug! This really is just a fun "side project" for me-- and am just curious if I was successful that maybe the resulting kids would generate interest and I should make it a focus Shrug!

Every year lots of pods start but quickly abort. Every year a couple hang on longer, teasing me, but eventually abort....


If you could get Pollen of Heavenly New Frontiers (pentaploid), this might work.
My experience in crossing with species is: most of the seedlings are disappointing - if there is something special still hidden in their genetics you need a lot of patience to bring it out.

Growing like weed is not really a feature for a garden plant - making runners and spreading through beds like H. fulva Europa isn't either.
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Jul 26, 2021 2:34 PM CST
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
Nightlily said:
My experience in crossing with species is: most of the seedlings are disappointing - if there is something special still hidden in their genetics you need a lot of patience to bring it out.


That is what I suspected might be the case. Unless a Europa seedling was a particularly great or intriguing bloom I almost certainly wouldn't pursure working with it...

Nightlily said:
Growing like weed is not really a feature for a garden plant - making runners and spreading through beds like H. fulva Europa isn't either.


Hilarious! Good points! I guess if a Europa seedling lost the invasiveness but kept the toughness it might be interesting...
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Jul 26, 2021 2:49 PM CST
Name: Sue
Austria
Daylilies Roses Irises Cat Lover Bee Lover Bookworm
Region: Europe
Dennis616 said:

That is what I suspected might be the case. Unless a Europa seedling was a particularly great or intriguing bloom I almost certainly wouldn't pursure working with it...


Don't forget about the bud count! H. fulva Europa flowers only 2 weeks in our region - the best cultivars here flower 2 monts! Whistling
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Jul 26, 2021 7:13 PM CST
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
Butterflies Peonies Native Plants and Wildflowers Region: Michigan Irises Hybridizer
Hostas Greenhouse Daylilies Garden Photography Region: Texas
I've got three small [so far] pods on Europa × Always Afternoon this year. We'll see what happens.🧐
Life is better at the lake.
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Jan 15, 2022 9:46 AM CST
Medford, WI (Zone 3b)
Hybridizer
SunriseSide said:I've got three small [so far] pods on Europa × Always Afternoon this year. We'll see what happens.🧐

So what was the outcome? Enquiring minds want to know! Thinking
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Jan 15, 2022 10:05 AM CST
Name: Dave
Wood Co TX & Huron Co MI
Butterflies Peonies Native Plants and Wildflowers Region: Michigan Irises Hybridizer
Hostas Greenhouse Daylilies Garden Photography Region: Texas
Strigeidida said:
So what was the outcome? Enquiring minds want to know! Thinking

I harvested 2 seeds from one pod and they are sitting in the refrigerator / dry storage
Life is better at the lake.
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Jan 16, 2022 6:57 AM CST
Name: Dennis
SW Michigan (Zone 5a)
Daylilies
Amazingly I actually collected quite a few seeds this year! First time ever. I believe the pollen parent was 'Mar the Star'. The seeds looked OK after several months in dry storage, and I started moist stratification last weekend. So fingers-crossed that some will sprout when planted indoors in a few weeks. I am intrigued by the combination of species with modern genetics. I can't resist at least checking it out by planting a few...
Avatar for Sscape
Jan 16, 2022 8:31 AM CST
Name: Greg Bogard
Winston-Salem, NC (Zone 7a)
Spreading by runners and growing like mad is not always a bad thing. There are situations where naturalizing a patch of ground with a patch of uniform color is GOOD! I.E.--the many daylily islands in the areas between North bound/South bound Interstate highway lanes here in NC would benefit from low maintenance, low cost, high visual value daylilies.
Avatar for Deryll
Jan 16, 2022 1:51 PM CST
Ohio (Zone 5a)
Dave Mussar and Brian Reeder both have some related material on their websites. It is very interesting.
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Jan 17, 2022 11:10 AM CST
Name: Nan
southeast Georgia (Zone 8b)
Amaryllis Enjoys or suffers hot summers Organic Gardener Keeps Horses Region: Georgia Daylilies
Composter Cat Lover Butterflies Bookworm Birds Vegetable Grower
Sscape said:Spreading by runners and growing like mad is not always a bad thing. There are situations where naturalizing a patch of ground with a patch of uniform color is GOOD! I.E.--the many daylily islands in the areas between North bound/South bound Interstate highway lanes here in NC would benefit from low maintenance, low cost, high visual value daylilies.


I have had the same thought many times when I drive on I-16 here in Georgia. The invasive primroses I innocently planted several years ago and have been digging up ever since would be just the thing on the I-16 median. Same with the pretty but invasive orange ditch lilies.
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Jan 17, 2022 2:45 PM CST
Name: Bob Watson
Terre Haute, IN (Zone 5b)
Daylilies
Hey guys, I haven't been on here for ages, but just found this thread to be of interest. You are right, Gil Stelter has been a pioneer in working with Fulva. Unfortunately, though his website is still there, he has retired and most of his garden was distributed to a public garden, I believe in Toronto. He did introduce one Fulva Europa tet offspring, Gryphon Carl Linnaeus. It is quite vigorous. However, Gil had a lot more luck in hybridizing with other triploid daylilies that are more 'defective' in that they throw off both diploid and tetraploid gametes, both eggs and pollen. These include Gil's collected varieties Fulva Switzerland and Fulva Yunnan. You may also have luck with Fulva Hankow, Fulva Cypriana, and Fulva Korean. All of these will set seed with dips or tets. The seed tends to be smaller than normal tet to tet seeds, and fewer seeds per pod, and with some that won't sprout. However, using these other clones has given me several hundred Fulva seedlings. Whereas Gil hybridized for 'open forms' I have focused on eyes and edges on bagel forms. I understand the worry about the rhizomatous nature of Fulva, but that aspect is lost in the first (F1) generation. Plants are vigorous and like most vigorous daylilies, may on occasion give an offset several inches away, but not much more. The comment on the number of buds is correct....modern daylilies have been selected for more buds and a longer season and crosses to fulva are a bit of a step back on bud count. One other objection that could be made to using Fulva is that the foliage is yellow-green as opposed to the harder dark green of something like H. Citrina. Nonetheless, my hybridization program has been rewarding and in April I will be giving a presentation on it to a northern daylily group. Anyway, here are some photos:
Gryphon Carl Linnaeus from Gil Stelter, bred from F. Europa:
Thumb of 2022-01-17/BobW/f0f8ac
Fulva Hankow:
Thumb of 2022-01-17/BobW/a544fc
Fulva cypriana:
Thumb of 2022-01-17/BobW/989710
Fulva Switzerland:
Thumb of 2022-01-17/BobW/8553bf
and here are a couple of seedlings:
Thumb of 2022-01-17/BobW/830961
Thumb of 2022-01-17/BobW/eeab9a
Thumb of 2022-01-17/BobW/f7b294
Surprisingly, they give up their open form fairly readily. I have some that are more decorative than these, but don't have access to them right now. I will also mention that blooms tend to be in the range of 5.5", so on the small side. Happy Hybridizing!
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Jan 17, 2022 4:05 PM CST
Name: Bob Watson
Terre Haute, IN (Zone 5b)
Daylilies
I wanted to add for Dennis since he is in SW Michigan that my wife will be presenting on our general hybridization program and I will be speaking about my tet Fulva program at the April 8th meeting of the Grand Rapids Daylily Society. I'm getting my talk together bit by bit.

I will add to my observations about fulvas that the seedlings (F1 and F2) are vigorous, but more importantly have resilience. In the spring of 2020, we had some very late, very hard frosts. The foliage in the seedling beds was weirdly twisted and dark green when frozen. Most of the second-year seedlings in that bed (typical tets) did not bloom at all. Most of the second-year fulva blooms did bloom fine. That's a worthwhile feature to retain from the species.
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