Post a reply

Image
Nov 10, 2021 11:51 AM CST
Name: Daisy
close to Baltimore, MD (Zone 7a)
Amaryllis Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Maryland Organic Gardener Irises Herbs
Hellebores Growing under artificial light Container Gardener Cat Lover Garden Photography Bulbs
Today I ran across a newish iris (Blind Ambition) that was described in the database as "Martius yellow." Martius yellow. Hmmm, I had never heard of that color descriptor before. I had to look it up online to try to see what it looked lke. I was unsuccessful in finding a color swatch to illustrate it. I did find out that martius is a chemical that is usd to dye fabric.

I have always wondered how iris color names are determined for purposes of describing and registering them. Do hybridizers take color charts out to the field and hold them up to the blooms to determine what color names are applicable? Do the hybridizers all use the same color naming charts?

Out of curiosity, i did a Google search on color name chart, and then switched to images, there were many, many different color charts. I zoomed in on many of them, especially the yellow charts, but couldn't find a single chart containing "Martius yellow.."

So I got even more curious, and decided to query our iris database for irises containg the color descriptor, "martius." The search results turned up only a dozen irises with that color descriptor. Three of them were unillustrated - two of those introduced before 1959, and one by Plotner introduced in 2013.' All the nine illustrated ones had been hybridized and described by Keith Keppel. Interesting!

So, currently, Keppel and Plotner seem to be the only hybridizers possibly using the same color chart.

I would love some hybridizers here to weigh in on what color charts they use to determine color names, and whether hybridizers make any attempt to buy and use the same color chart that other hybridizers are using.

Joe Ghio @JosephGhio, are you there? Any other hybridizers?
-"If I can’t drain a swamp, I’ll go pull some weeds." - Charles Williams
Image
Nov 10, 2021 1:59 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
We use the Royal Horticulture color charts. They have numbers, not names. One has to put 'near the color number' as the petals are not exact. The only one I found 'exact' were the standards of a dark purple of a MTB seedling.
Image
Nov 10, 2021 4:48 PM CST
Name: Daisy
close to Baltimore, MD (Zone 7a)
Amaryllis Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Maryland Organic Gardener Irises Herbs
Hellebores Growing under artificial light Container Gardener Cat Lover Garden Photography Bulbs
Lucy, the irises in our database have color names, not color numbers. My question is, where do these names come from?
-"If I can’t drain a swamp, I’ll go pull some weeds." - Charles Williams
Avatar for JosephGhio
Nov 10, 2021 9:34 PM CST

Keith is very specific in describing his irises. He uses the Royal National Horticulture Soc. panels of colors which show very specific and slight varietations in a color and names each "shade". I have those panels as well but decided long ago that the color names mean nothing to 99% of the peoples and simply use a color name that the general public can understand and picture.
Image
Nov 10, 2021 11:55 PM CST
Name: Daisy
close to Baltimore, MD (Zone 7a)
Amaryllis Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Maryland Organic Gardener Irises Herbs
Hellebores Growing under artificial light Container Gardener Cat Lover Garden Photography Bulbs
So, the Royal National Horticulture Soc. panel DOES have names as well as the color numbers that Lucy mentioned? Or do they have two sets of charts, one with numbers and one with names?
-"If I can’t drain a swamp, I’ll go pull some weeds." - Charles Williams
Avatar for JosephGhio
Nov 11, 2021 12:25 AM CST

I went searching for my box of RHS since it has been years since I last looked at it, it was a chore. Finally I found in the corner of a closet. It is a box of 4 fans. 1 fan of a primary color and the secondary color, i.e; Fan 1 yellow, yellow-orange, orange, orange-red, red groups. Each panel has 4 shades , lettered A, B, C, D., Fan 1 has 154 panels (pages). Interestingly the 4th fan is made up of "greyed colours".

I believe Keith uses something else that gives a name for each color shade. But I don't recall what it is.
Avatar for JosephGhio
Nov 11, 2021 12:30 AM CST

Surprise! I just found a booklet in the box. Surprise it has a name for every color on a panel. Some shades have the same name.
Image
Nov 11, 2021 4:46 PM CST
Name: Daisy
close to Baltimore, MD (Zone 7a)
Amaryllis Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Maryland Organic Gardener Irises Herbs
Hellebores Growing under artificial light Container Gardener Cat Lover Garden Photography Bulbs
Thanks, Joe!
-"If I can’t drain a swamp, I’ll go pull some weeds." - Charles Williams
Avatar for Plicata
Nov 12, 2021 7:28 PM CST
Name: kip
oregon
What I use is Maerz & Paul's book, Dictionary of Color. Names given on some but not all color samples. For registration purposes, specific color codes (names and/or numbers) are good, but for general use (descriptions in ads, etc.) it is often more practical to describe the colors in more basic, "understandable" terms. I like Maerz & Paul (M&P in registrations) because that book has progressively greyed plates of the various colors....very useful when describing my dirty plicatas!
Image
Nov 13, 2021 7:06 AM CST
Name: Daisy
close to Baltimore, MD (Zone 7a)
Amaryllis Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Maryland Organic Gardener Irises Herbs
Hellebores Growing under artificial light Container Gardener Cat Lover Garden Photography Bulbs
That's good information! Thanks!
-"If I can’t drain a swamp, I’ll go pull some weeds." - Charles Williams
Image
Nov 13, 2021 8:37 AM CST
Name: Leslie
Durham, NC (Zone 8a)
Garden Photography Cat Lover Irises Region: North Carolina Peonies Enjoys or suffers hot summers
Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Hello @Plicata! Yes, you do have wonderful plicatas! And amazing luminatas too.
"The chimera is a one time happenstance event where the plant has a senior moment and forgets what it is doing." - Paul Black
Last edited by Lestv Nov 13, 2021 8:38 AM Icon for preview
Image
Nov 15, 2021 2:48 PM CST
Name: Robin
Melbourne, Australia (Zone 10b)
Region: Australia Garden Photography Cat Lover Irises Seed Starter
Welcome! to the iris forum Plicata.
Image
Nov 15, 2021 9:25 PM CST
Name: Evelyn
Sierra foothills, Northern CA (Zone 8a)
Irises Region: Ukraine Garden Procrastinator Bee Lover Butterflies Plant and/or Seed Trader
Region: California Cat Lover Deer Bulbs Foliage Fan Annuals
@Plicata/Mr. Keppel ~ We are honored
to Welcome! you to our amateur iris forum. Hurray!

I love the discussion of color charts. I was hoping to obtain an RHS colour chart, but so far, to no avail.
"Luck favors the prepared mind." - Thomas Jefferson
Image
Nov 15, 2021 9:52 PM CST
Name: Lucy
Hamilton, MA (Zone 6b)
irises
Charter ATP Member Cottage Gardener Irises Region: Northeast US Region: United Kingdom Region: United States of America
Enjoys or suffers cold winters
As I said the RH S can be frustrating since there is almost no exac t color match.
Image
Nov 15, 2021 10:00 PM CST
Name: Evelyn
Sierra foothills, Northern CA (Zone 8a)
Irises Region: Ukraine Garden Procrastinator Bee Lover Butterflies Plant and/or Seed Trader
Region: California Cat Lover Deer Bulbs Foliage Fan Annuals
Or even the Maerz and Paul color chart.
"Luck favors the prepared mind." - Thomas Jefferson
Image
Nov 15, 2021 10:11 PM CST
Name: Daisy
close to Baltimore, MD (Zone 7a)
Amaryllis Plant and/or Seed Trader Region: Maryland Organic Gardener Irises Herbs
Hellebores Growing under artificial light Container Gardener Cat Lover Garden Photography Bulbs
I do like Mr. Keppel's dscription of the Maerz and Paul color chart. I gather they are out of print, but you can buy them used on the web - for a hefty price!
-"If I can’t drain a swamp, I’ll go pull some weeds." - Charles Williams
Image
Nov 16, 2021 1:14 AM CST
Name: Evelyn
Sierra foothills, Northern CA (Zone 8a)
Irises Region: Ukraine Garden Procrastinator Bee Lover Butterflies Plant and/or Seed Trader
Region: California Cat Lover Deer Bulbs Foliage Fan Annuals
Yes, it is the hefty price that has been keeping me away.
"Luck favors the prepared mind." - Thomas Jefferson
Image
Nov 16, 2021 6:24 PM CST
Name: Laurie
southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Irises Butterflies Bee Lover Bulbs Cat Lover Region: Nebraska
Welcome! @plicata Do you go by Keith or Kip?

LOVE your Dark Energy, Dark Universe, and Magic Ring!! All are doing well for me. Smiling Thank you! I'm looking forward to more new creations.



Image
Nov 16, 2021 10:22 PM CST
Name: Richard
Joshua Tree (Zone 9a)
Birds Herbs Irises Ponds Plant and/or Seed Trader
I like dark universe.
Image
Nov 17, 2021 12:51 PM CST
Name: Timothy
NE Oregon (Zone 7b)
DISCLAIMER: the below comments are an attempt to clarify a difficult color naming conundrum for me, not to cast shade on, criticise or belittle anyone's color naming convention/or system

Its really the height of difficulty for me, to describe in accurate, meaningful terms, the exact tint, hue, and gradation of color in an iris, both in my introductions and in the .pdf catalogs I send out. Purple/violets aren't just "purple" with irises anymore. Neither are the various "blue" colors. Yellows can be a pain to describe too. Also people "see" colors in different ways too
It would sure be a valuable service/reference to find a simplified, standardized name centric identification that accurately describes the color but is relevant to most iris growers and the public.
For example:
What color is/are the following besides being various shades/tints/ or gradations of yellow?
Pinard Yellow
Aureolin Yellow
Mimosa Yellow
Citron Yellow
Chrome Yellow
Chinese Yellow
Goldenrod Yellow
Sulphur Yellow
Quince Yellow
etc .............
How would i describe the above "yellows" in terms a lay person would understand other than the simple terms of medium, light or dark. My color vocabulary is limited and id like to expand it significantly.

Only the members of the Members group may reply to this thread.
  • Started by: DaisyDo
  • Replies: 36, views: 1,361
Member Login:

( No account? Join now! )

Today's site banner is by arctangent and is called "Mirror, mirror"

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.