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Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
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dellac
Mar 26, 2014 4:47 PM CST
Great stuff, Lorn. Mind-boggling... but that is the exciting thing about research - the whole fact-is-weirder-than-fiction factor. I love how amazing nature is!

I'm really interested in breeding from Anastasia, so I'm glad she's a reported test subject. I had two pods this year that didn't fill out properly but had a few lumpy fat endosperm 'seeds'. I couldn't find any embryos, but obviously it is worth persisting and she'll respond to the right pollen?
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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Leftwood
Mar 26, 2014 6:33 PM CST
Roosterlorn said:Question: What is the best location to take a sample? For the sake of uniformity, is there a standard procedure setting sampling location, time and age of the plant, etc.?

I would think a best location would be a part least affected by environmental swings and anomalies. Along these lines, a scale seems a good subject, but a leaf, not so much.

Rick, a seed from one of his crosses tested 36-3-54. It is also interesting to note that Anastasia, commonly referred to as 3n, actually favors 4n at 17-14-60.

I am especially interested in the seed, and did he say specifically that the sample was taken from the embryo, endosperm, or ....? Assuming this is a Lilium seed, was it "normally" 2n, 3n, 4n?

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
May 2, 2014 8:46 AM CST
Rick, do you know of any work that has been done toward hybridizing Trumpets X/X Martagons such as cut style, mentor pollen, embryo rescue, etc? Minnesota being the heart of Martagon country, it would seem only natural that someone up there has tried. Any information?
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
May 2, 2014 3:16 PM CST
What is mentor pollen?
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
May 2, 2014 4:44 PM CST
Joe, a mentor pollen is pollen that which is used to make a pod parent's reproductive system more receptive to a distant partner that it would normally not accept. Usually a mentor pollen is closely related and is one the pod parent likes and the style and ovules become stimulated. Without this stimulation, distant incompatible pollen grains might not be able to travel and survive through the style tube. And if they did make it, the ovules most likely wouldn't accept them. So to make that all possible (at least theoretically), a likeable (mentor) pollen is mixed with the distant unlikable pollen and a mixed seed pod will develop. A mentor pollen sort of tricks the pod parent's reproductive system into thinking everything is great while the distant villain pollen sneaks in and pollenates right along with it. It would be nice if that's all there was to it with Trumpet XX Maragons but it ain't quite all that simple.
[Last edited by Roosterlorn - May 2, 2014 4:49 PM (+)]
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Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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Leftwood
May 2, 2014 9:02 PM CST
Roosterlorn said:Rick, do you know of any work that has been done toward hybridizing Trumpets X/X Martagons such as cut style, mentor pollen, embryo rescue, etc? Minnesota being the heart of Martagon country, it would seem only natural that someone up there has tried. Any information?


Not a clue. And Minnesota might be the heart of American martagon country, but otherwise, not so.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
NE Massachusetts (Zone 6a)
externmed
May 20, 2014 7:33 PM CST
Played a bit the summer before last. Mostly asiatics on white henryi. Grew seeds under bright fluorescents, produced a new leaf every couple of weeks. This winter they have grown stems and most are about to flower (at almost 1 1/2 years). Now growing under HPS, stems are elongated, but I find it interesting that half of the seedlings produced stem bulbils extensively, as none of the parents did. In the future, will be looking to breed tall outward or downward facing lilies in pink or red shades.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
May 20, 2014 7:42 PM CST
Externmed, first welcome. You crossed asiatics onto henryi? Any pics?
Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
May 20, 2014 7:49 PM CST

Moderator

Hi externmed, glad you have joined us here on the lily forum. I too like the out-to-downward form of lilies. If you have a camera we would love to see photos of your creations.
Welcome!
NE Massachusetts (Zone 6a)
externmed
May 20, 2014 8:13 PM CST
Thanks Joe and pardalinum, buds are growing, will have flowers over a few weeks. Enjoy seeing photos here -- some really beautiful hybrids. Will post photos.
Charlie
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
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Leftwood
May 20, 2014 9:11 PM CST
Hi Charlie, nice to see you here, too. That is an interesting development!

The Allium thunbergii 'Alba' you sent me are doing great...
Thumb of 2014-05-21/Leftwood/a79023

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
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dellac
May 20, 2014 9:12 PM CST
Fantastic! Hurray!

How inspirational. Thanks for joining and sharing. Smiling
Name: Anthony Weeding
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
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gwhizz
May 21, 2014 2:55 AM CST
Welcome to the 'Madhouse' Charlie! Welcome!
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
May 21, 2014 6:27 AM CST
Hi Charlie Welcome!
I sprinkle a little pollen around, too. Never with White Henryi X Asiatic, though. Interesting! I've thought about crossing some of my Div. VI stock X/X Belle series Asiapets but haven't found the time to work it in the schedule. What form are the leaves and what's their distribution on the stem? It will be very interesting to see what 2nd generation will look like in terms of height, etc. Would love to see some pictures of your cross. Very, very interesting to me!
Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Image
Leftwood
Jul 24, 2014 8:46 PM CST
People say an upturned pistil indicates pollination, but I wonder.....

I guess not a lot of you protect the stigma from contamination before pollinating, but most of the time, I do. Usually, I do my actual pollination the next day or sometimes two days after. Occasionally, I'll forget that I had covered a stigma of such and such lily, and not realize it until three or four days later. Usually, these pistils have turned upward, despite them still not being pollinated. I haven't done any trumpet hybridizing for years; perhaps the phenomenon holds true for only certain types of lilies. But can anyone verify that unpollinated lily pistils always remain straight(ish)? In other words, have you actually taken note: this lily pistil did not upturn and did not produce a pod?
Or, can anyone verify that every upturned pistil always produces a pod?

These are two examples of two day old flowers, ready to be pollinated, but the deed is not done yet.

Lilium leichtlinii x L. maculatum var. wilsonii, and Lilium 'Sarabande'
Thumb of 2014-07-25/Leftwood/b46d1f Thumb of 2014-07-25/Leftwood/253323

Sarabande did get a bit of its own pollen dabbed prior to protection. Yet another variable to consider.
L. formosanum/philippinense was famous for this in my garden. I would peel open a bud, and there would already be ripe pollen there.

I've been doing some apomixis and self pollination testing, too. I wish I had thought to record the pistil position.
But I will say this: I have never had Lilium distichum produce a pod of any kind, ever. This is what one looks like this year. Every pistil is turned up and we will see what happens in the weeks to come.

Thumb of 2014-07-25/Leftwood/b6fb19
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
[Last edited by Leftwood - Jul 24, 2014 8:46 PM (+)]
Give a thumbs up | Quote | Post #666305 (15)
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Jul 24, 2014 9:24 PM CST
Interesting. I've never paid it that much attention. But I do know that many of mine turn up in unison with the flower opening. I'll keep an eye out and maybe get a picture or two.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Jul 25, 2014 10:33 AM CST
Rick, I always though that the ovary would turn up upon successful pollination. Obviously that only applies to downfacing and outfacing lilies mostly but I feel like I've seen pistils upturned with no pollen before.
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Jul 25, 2014 11:54 AM CST
Probably doesn't make much sense to experiment on a single plant but since I have one that always opens with a fairly straight style, I decided to test it anyway. A cultivar named YELLOW AURELIAN will be our test plant. Our test bud is the bud in the middle and our standard pollenated flower will be the one to the immediate right of it.
Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/4a0d02

Test Bud. Forced open and green pollen removed. Note that there appears to be very slight upward bend in the style. In reality it's not that curved but the camera affect makes it look more pronounced that it is.


Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/e497c7


Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/58daf0


Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/b9a894


Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/f8f422


The unpollenated stigma was then protected with foil


Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/42b0cb

Our standard is a flower that has been open for I day. It was given a dose of pollen from a Lily Garden Pink Trumpet and treated in typical fashion.


Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/43cb4c


Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/077f0a


Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/08aa7a

Name: Rick R.
Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Hybridizer
Seed Starter Plant Identifier Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Image
Leftwood
Jul 25, 2014 2:48 PM CST
Thumb of 2014-07-25/Roosterlorn/08aa7a


I'm honored to have a test named after me. Green Grin!

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates
Name: della
hobart, tasmania
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner: 2015
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dellac
Jul 26, 2014 8:06 AM CST
Hilarious!

I agree with Joe. I've only ever known the assumption to be that if fertilisation has taken place then the ovary turns upward (and since I'm really only interested in out and down-facing flowers, that's all that matters to me Green Grin! ). It's that little straightening in the bend in the pedicel that gets me excited.

The style turning upward I thought always followed the down-out facing flowers opening, so that the stigma can be brought into contact with open anthers and recieve pollen. So... not a function of being pollinated but a way to ensure good pollination. Might have been my imagination at work all this time!

If I was looking for pods on that L. distichum I'd be disheartened by now. Nary a twitch of lengthening in those tight pedicel bends!

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