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Name: Rick R. Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4           Leftwood Jul 26, 2014 3:22 PM CST |
dellac said: Exactly!  dellac said:The style turning upward I thought always followed the down-out facing flowers opening, so that the stigma can be brought into contact with open anthers and recieve pollen. So... not a function of being pollinated but a way to ensure good pollination. Might have been my imagination at work all this time! Except considering most lilies are self-infertile, not a very plausible theory.  When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates |
Name: della hobart, tasmania    dellac Jul 26, 2014 6:12 PM CST |
Leftwood said: Hence my imagination at work.  Thinking of leaning stems and the way stigmas turn, and the fact that the stigmas of upward-facing blooms don't, it seems likely to be a simple phototropism. |
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn) S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)      Roosterlorn Jul 26, 2014 8:55 PM CST |
| Whatever that means? I had one purple long bud expose it's stigma right out between unopened petals on a tight bud and curved skyward a good 2 inches. It looked downright naughty. I thought I took a picture of it but I searched the files and it's not there so apparently I didn't think it was worth noting. |
Name: della hobart, tasmania dellac Jul 26, 2014 9:41 PM CST |
Lilies are naughty flowers. That's why we love them so much.  Phototropism is just the habit of above-ground plant growth to reach for the light. The stems of some varieties develop more of a phototropic lean than others. I've never really thought about the stigma also being positioned for maximum light exposure before, but now that I think about the weirdly bent pistils on downward facing lily flowers from stems that have developed a great lean... the pictures in my memory all seem to suggest it was to get the stigma up toward the light via the shortest possible route. Now I have imagery in my head of lily stems covered in pretty flower-faces all with an eye in the centre on the end of pistil-stalks!  |
Name: Rick R. Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4 Leftwood Jul 27, 2014 8:29 AM CST |
My guess is that it is a reaction to geotropism* more than phototropism**, considering that UV light shortens pollen life. I haven't noticed that leaning lily stems also produce leaning pistils.  *orientation in response to gravity. **orientation in response to light. When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates |
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn) S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b) Roosterlorn Jul 27, 2014 9:28 AM CST |
| In my case of Trumpets and Aurelians, on newly opened flowers, I've seen the style bend toward the morning sun many times, especially on starburst types where the style extends a good distance out from the petals. I also see this on uprights--where the style bends toward the sun in the morning. |
Name: Rick R. Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4 Leftwood Jul 27, 2014 9:05 PM CST |
| And then what happens, as the day(s) wears on? Also Lorn, you hinted on another thread that you prefer(?) primary flowers to pollinate. It would seem intuitive that they would be more robust, but have you noticed any evidence? When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates |
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn) S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b) Roosterlorn Jul 28, 2014 5:23 AM CST |
| I don't know what happens as the day wears on but I assume they straighten because by the next morning they have resumed their normal/natural posture and they stay that way for the duration of the flower. Regarding pod size relative to primary and secondary buds, yes, there is a difference. As you thought, a primary pod is a good 1/3rd larger than a secondary. With the exercise in the other post, I could just as easily use a secondary since it's more or less an exploration and I only need a few seeds to find out if I like the cross. Taking it a step further, if I like the cross, then I'll use Primary pods to produce lots of seeds and then 'carpet bomb' several pots with many seeds. |
Name: della hobart, tasmania dellac Jul 28, 2014 6:59 AM CST |
Leftwood said:My guess is that it is a reaction to geotropism* more than phototropism**, considering that UV light shortens pollen life. I haven't noticed that leaning lily stems also produce leaning pistils. Oh, that's an interesting thought. I hadn't considered it that way. But wouldn't it have to be a tendency to grow away from the centre of gravity... a kind of anti-geotropism? (As I understand it, geotropism is the habit of underground parts to grow toward the centre of gravity.) I've never heard of such a phenomena. UV damage to pollen, as it relates to style and stigma orientation, isn't an issue. Otherwise upward-facing lilies would be at a severe evolutionary disadvantage! If pollen is viable when it hits a ripe, compatible stigma then it is only a very short time before pollen tube germination takes place. I thought I read somewhere that it can be only a couple a hours between pollination and fertilisation, but maybe I'm mistaken. But, assuming I'm not... I can't see why a sun-seeking stigma would reduce the chances of fertilisation. I'd love to find some images among my photos now, to see if I really have seen the kind of thing I'm thinking of, but if Lorn has seen something similar, I'll have to be happy with that for now. I have to give my image-filing the Lorn treatment! (yes... my images are stored in virtual bedlam ) |
Name: Rick R. Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4 Leftwood Jul 28, 2014 8:22 AM CST |
| I was thinking more about my previous comment regarding UV light, and came to the same conclusions..... you're right, Della. Any possible detriment would be insignificant. I've seen the terms "positive" and "negative" geotropism used, and the way I learned it was "geotropism" was all encompassing. But once again, I find that Americans have distanced themselves form the rest of the world, who seem to make a distinction. Everything you ever wanted (and didn't want) to know about geotropism: http://www.biologie.uni-hambur... And site you could spend days in. When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates |
Name: della hobart, tasmania dellac Jul 29, 2014 6:29 AM CST |
Leftwood said: Oh dear... I'm done for. |
Name: della hobart, tasmania dellac Jul 31, 2014 4:39 AM CST |
Thanks Rick, that article was intriguing. I learned lots I didn't know there was to know!  I kept meaning to make a little note of how my first attempt at embryo rescue faired. Unequivocal failure. So I learned something. Out of 24 cultures only one was lost to contamination, but of the others, nothing grew. I found when I tried to extract embryos that they were so tiny (and my eyesight not nearly good enough*?) and the seeds quite tough, that getting them cleanly out was too difficult. I think I squashed a few in the process. Then I decided to see what would happen if I stopped mangling them and just put the immature seeds in, so I did that. But I think it was just too late. I let the pods go too long before I tried. Problem is, I'm a dreadful planner. I look at something and think... ooohh... I better do that now, then it takes me at least two weeks to get everything I need together to do it. Instead of having it ready to go.... So, given another attempt, I would cut those little green pods weeks earlier than I did. While they still look active and juicy. Long before they look like they might have 'stopped' at some stage of development. *I did buy one of those jewelers/gem cutters magnifying headsets, but it was painful to wear and still didn't seem to help. |
Name: Rick R. Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4 Leftwood Jul 31, 2014 8:27 AM CST |
| We can learn so much from "failures", however they come about. So did you end up removing the seed when the pod was spongy? Not really knowing anything about this, I'm not sure when the best time is. I hear it said to wait "X" number of weeks from pollination, but it must be quite variable from lily type to lily type, and thus not a good standard to use. As I understand, the predominant problem is that the seed embryo and endosperm are incompatible, having different origins. One would surmise that a more mature embryo would be advantageous, as long as the physicality of extraction could still be performed. So would this be at the first detection of the pod's loss of turgidity? When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates |
Name: Catherine IN (Zone 5b)          Cat Jul 31, 2014 12:10 PM CST |
| Sorry didn't realize this was a sticky. Moved the post. Cat "Plant your own garden and decorate your own soul, instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers." - Veronica A. Shoffstall |
Name: della hobart, tasmania dellac Jul 31, 2014 6:06 PM CST |
 Cat.Yes, the pods were spongy. I was told that extracting the embryos at 6 weeks was a good guide, but I've never been ready at 6 weeks! I guess that's based on embryos reaching a manageable size before any incompatibility kicks in, but I'm wondering how successful ERers find the embryos at all! Do they use microscopes? I don't remember reading anything about that. I wonder if it's too late at the point when the pod begins to lose turgidity. We need someone with experience to share some answers. |
Name: Catherine IN (Zone 5b) Cat Jul 31, 2014 7:26 PM CST |
| Thanks! That is what I was posting about. I opened a pod today. It was my first one. It had turned a pale green and started to get soft or spongy. I picked and opened it today. Was not sure what to do, had been watching it for a few days. Did I pick the pod to soon? Cat "Plant your own garden and decorate your own soul, instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers." - Veronica A. Shoffstall |
Name: Rick R. Minneapolis, MN, USA zone 4 Leftwood Jul 31, 2014 7:44 PM CST |
| Again, as I understand it, incompatibility "kicks in" only after the embryo germinates, when it tries to use the incompatible endosperm. Therefore, I would think the best time is when the embryo is mature as possible, but still able to be separated from the endosperm. I read somewhere how the embryo "pops" out when squeezed correctly. I guess I just assumed it was with nimble fingers, but..... So I would assume the seed must still be very turgid. I don't think anything would "pop" out in a half turgid seed. Sounds like it would require a lot of practice. And not only that, different types of lily seed can have different embryo placement within the seed, complicating things even more. I hope I'm making sense here. I guess I'm behind the times (hardly ever watch TV), but I just "discovered" 2Cellos and am listening to them as I write. (I'm three-quarter Slovenian, and one of the guys was born in Slovenia.) So this music is new to my analytic mind, and I can kinda almost understand their Croatian, too. When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers. - Socrates |
Name: Joe Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)     Joebass Jul 31, 2014 7:46 PM CST |
| Cat, Della is speaking about a technique called embryo rescue in which you harvest the seeds early to grow in a sterile environment. Usually due to a wide cross in hybridyzing, where the embryo will form and die prematurely for a number of reasons. It is done to save these embryos before they die. |
Name: Catherine IN (Zone 5b) Cat Jul 31, 2014 7:50 PM CST |
| Okay, Thank You! Cat "Plant your own garden and decorate your own soul, instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers." - Veronica A. Shoffstall |
Name: della hobart, tasmania dellac Aug 1, 2014 5:23 PM CST |
Leftwood said:Again, as I understand it, incompatibility "kicks in" only after the embryo germinates, when it tries to use the incompatible endosperm. Therefore, I would think the best time is when the embryo is mature as possible, but still able to be separated from the endosperm. I read somewhere how the embryo "pops" out when squeezed correctly. I guess I just assumed it was with nimble fingers, but..... So I would assume the seed must still be very turgid. I don't think anything would "pop" out in a half turgid seed. Sounds like it would require a lot of practice. And not only that, different types of lily seed can have different embryo placement within the seed, complicating things even more. You're making sense. I must have read the same thing about popping embryos, because I was expecting it to be that easy. But at what point in pod development the seed starts to toughen up? I don't know. I'd have to sacrifice quite a few pods to discover that for myself. And I love my pods! If I made sacrificial crosses I'd probably go soft on them and not want to cut them up. I hope to go plant hunting in the Balkan part of the world before too many more years have passed. |
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