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Jul 6, 2023 9:52 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Annuals Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Orchids
Region: Ohio Hummingbirder Heirlooms Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
Do we have a consensus about how to deal with a blind shoots on roses?
The answer might start from ….It depends…

Will be specific about current situation with one rose, but would love to get a general guidance.
I have a new rose Ascot, bare root, planting in April. Started very good, but produced only blind shoots, took them about 1/3 off, got blind shoots again. Green Grin! Now new grows are coming, what I am supposed to if it's happened third time? May be the space is not sunny enough and I need to replant it? Thanks as always.
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
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Jul 6, 2023 10:50 PM CST
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, New York (Zone 7a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Photography Roses Bulbs Peonies
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: New York
The article at this link discusses how blind shoots are not well understood, but several theories exist. My own thoughts are to make sure that it's not confused with midge damage (which is actually mentioned in the article).

https://www.rose.org/single-po...
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Jul 6, 2023 11:24 PM CST
SW Ohio River Valley (Zone 6b)
Perhaps you could post some close ups.
Avatar for MargieNY
Jul 6, 2023 11:32 PM CST
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Elena, here's an old post from the forum.
The advice is similar to the article Mike posted.
https://garden.org/thread/view...
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Avatar for LittleAnnie
Jul 7, 2023 6:09 AM CST
Name: Patricia
Northeast Ohio (Zone 6a)
This subject is something I know nothing about, never even heard of before. I appreciate that Elena put it in. Now if it happens to any of my roses I know what to do. Thanks, Elena. Smiling
Love covers a multitude of sins......thank God!
Avatar for MargieNY
Jul 7, 2023 8:36 AM CST
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Avatar for LittleAnnie
Jul 7, 2023 10:50 AM CST
Name: Patricia
Northeast Ohio (Zone 6a)
MargieNY said: http://www.sarosesociety.org/a...


Great advice, Margie. Does this happen often to rose plants? When I grew them ages ago it never occurred.
Love covers a multitude of sins......thank God!
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Jul 7, 2023 3:49 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Annuals Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Orchids
Region: Ohio Hummingbirder Heirlooms Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
Thank you folks! I am thinking now that I might have both: midge damage (just a few) and the whole Ascot bush does not like something…
I will make a picture as soon as the problem will be more visible, this is roses third attempt to give me flowers! I have placed sticky traps again and planning to buy a looking glass to learn what else I have around. nodding
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
Last edited by Elena999 Jul 7, 2023 4:43 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for LittleAnnie
Jul 7, 2023 4:14 PM CST
Name: Patricia
Northeast Ohio (Zone 6a)
Elena999 said: Thank you folks! I am thinking now that I might have both: midge damage (just a few) and the whole Ascot bush does not like something…
I will make a picture as soon as the problem will be more visible, the has has his third attempt to give me flowers! I have placed sticky traps again and planning to buy a looking glass to learn what else I have around. nodding


I'm so sorry, Elena. Midges are horrible to have. I hope it's cleared up fast.
Love covers a multitude of sins......thank God!
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Jul 7, 2023 6:18 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Annuals Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Orchids
Region: Ohio Hummingbirder Heirlooms Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
First victims … Whistling Have no idea who they are.
Thumb of 2023-07-08/Elena999/b93e10
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
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Jul 7, 2023 6:49 PM CST
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, New York (Zone 7a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Photography Roses Bulbs Peonies
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: New York
Let's hope and pray it's not midge, which can be disastrous for a rose garden.
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Jul 7, 2023 8:03 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Annuals Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Orchids
Region: Ohio Hummingbirder Heirlooms Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
Thanks Mike!
PS. Oops! I missed it when was looking for the subject first time…
The thread "Dreaded Rose Midge" in Roses forum

The rose bud bellow looks suspicious to me. Any idea?
Thumb of 2023-07-08/Elena999/452cc8
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
Last edited by Elena999 Jul 7, 2023 8:18 PM Icon for preview
Avatar for MargieNY
Jul 7, 2023 9:22 PM CST
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Elena999 said: Thanks Mike!
PS. Oops! I missed it when was looking for the subject first time…
The thread "Dreaded Rose Midge" in Roses forum

The rose bud bellow looks suspicious to me. Any idea?
Thumb of 2023-07-08/Elena999/452cc8

Elena,
there are 2 insects in the photo you just sent. the first insect is hard to see but it's on the upper left side - this insect has wings. It's in the shadow of the leaf.
The 2nd insect is on the right side - it's one of those green insects that is also on that other photo with the yellow pail/container.
See my photo, I marked it for you.
One of theose insect could be the bad bug. the other one could be a beneficial insect.
There must be someone on one of the other forums who can id insect. Ask Zuzu or Sue.


Thumb of 2023-07-08/MargieNY/8da3bb
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Image
Jul 7, 2023 9:50 PM CST
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, New York (Zone 7a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Photography Roses Bulbs Peonies
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: New York
The small aborted bud in the photo is consistent with rose midge damage, but I couldn't confirm it unless I inspected other aborted tips on the same plant or those around it.

Midges can insert their eggs into a plant's tissue at three different stages, and it's always centered around the new tips that would otherwise flower and bloom:

(1) Sometimes the midge will insert its eggs at the very tip of new, red-colored shoots before the rose bud takes shape. When the eggs hatch, the tiny larvae (or maggots) eat the tissue, and prevent the new rose bud from ever taking form. The tiny larvae then emerge from the damaged tip, drop to the ground, and form a cocoon, from which they will emerge as winged midges a few days later. Then they will fly right up into the same rose bush, and repeat the process. In these cases it's common to see what looks like tiny shredded "threads" of dried up, black plant tissue standing upright (some people say this looks like a tiny burnt matchstick).

(2) Sometimes the midge will insert its eggs into an emerging rose bud just as it starts to take shape. When this happens, the tiny rose bud dies and turns brown but stays in place, and looks like your photo.

(3) Other times the midge inserts its eggs into a rose bud that has already begun to mature. When the eggs hatch the larvae eat the tissue, but don't do enough damage to abort the entire bud. Instead, the damage causes the bud to bend over at 90 degrees, as if it has bowed its head in prayer. Sometimes these buds will simply die off; other times they may partly bloom or be deformed.

The best way to know for sure if this is midge damage is to carefully cut off the tips of affected new shoots, take them indoors away from the garden, place them on a flat dark surface, and carefully peel them open. Sometimes you will see teeny tiny white larvae about a millimeter or two long, if they are still present. You may need a magnifying glass to see them well (I use my microscope to confirm their presence, but if you have good vision you can see them with the naked eye). At first they will appear to be motionless, but upon magnified inspection, you can see them moving. Other times they will not be present because they have already abandoned the damaged bud and dropped to the ground.

By the way, neither the winged fly in the upper left corner of the photo, nor the green leafhopper on the right side, are the culprit (neither are midges). Rose midges are about one-third the size of a mosquito, and are very difficult to spot.
Last edited by Mike Jul 8, 2023 1:17 PM Icon for preview
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Jul 7, 2023 10:19 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Annuals Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Orchids
Region: Ohio Hummingbirder Heirlooms Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
Margie and Mike, Thank You! Thank You!
The insect on the left was also suspicious for me. Angry
Mike, I saw one bud damaged as you described in (3). Ouch! I have placed at least dozen of yellow sticky traps and will check them morning if any midges were caught.
Also ordered a magnifying glass and planning to investigate the damaged buds.
Many thanks again!!
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
Avatar for MargieNY
Jul 7, 2023 10:49 PM CST
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Image
Jul 7, 2023 11:39 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Annuals Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Orchids
Region: Ohio Hummingbirder Heirlooms Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
MargieNY said: https://tinyurl.com/2p9fmndj

Thanks Margie, spent some time compared my insect with wings (my original photo has much better resolution) with different images of rose midges and think that Mike is right, this particular one is some sort of fly, has typical fly's eyes. I hope. Whistling
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
Avatar for MargieNY
Jul 8, 2023 12:00 AM CST
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Ideas: Level 1
Good to hear you were able to do a comparision. I am sorry you are going through all this. Thank goodness Mike can help you - he's wonderful.
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Image
Jul 8, 2023 7:35 AM CST
Name: Mike Stewart
Lower Hudson Valley, New York (Zone 7a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Photo Contest Winner 2020 Garden Photography Roses Bulbs Peonies
Lover of wildlife (Black bear badge) Dog Lover Cat Lover Birds Enjoys or suffers cold winters Region: New York
Here is a single photograph I took that shows scenarios #1 (left) and #3 (right) from my post above. I find the left side of the image (scenario #1) to be much more common in my garden than the other two scenarios, but I get all of them.

Thumb of 2023-07-08/Mike/43dc8c
Last edited by Mike Jul 8, 2023 8:43 AM Icon for preview
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Jul 8, 2023 3:09 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Elena
Cincinnati, OH (Zone 6b)
Usus est optĭmus magister.
Annuals Solar Power Seed Starter Roses Organic Gardener Orchids
Region: Ohio Hummingbirder Heirlooms Garden Art Dog Lover Cat Lover
Mike… I did as you suggested and saw them moving with 30x magnifying glass. Grrr….I would say that I have collected about dozen of suspicious buds (I have 80+ roses) not much, but it might be just beginning.
Panic mode on.😱
PS. Glad I was asked about blind shoots. Green Grin!
Believe or not I did not even heard about rose midge before. Grumbling
Not sure that I would like to use systemic insecticide yet as well as you.

All suggestions are welcome. Confused
“….the world will be saved by beauty.”
Last edited by Elena999 Jul 9, 2023 7:16 AM Icon for preview

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