So I had a few cull tets ready for the compost pill and it occurred to me to practice cutting the crown readying for treatment. Did some of this back when.. pretty straight away.. soaked over night the root tips in water and planted to observe growth. Understand.. just a cutting regrowth experiment w NO treatment. They look greener already today. Patriot Daylily Society site has good article per conversion.. any idea of who might have some stock solution to market? TMail works fine. Going to work with our dip next spring.










Our 'Seven Miracles' dip showing at 7.25" last week.

iamaladin
I have heard they changed the rules and made it hard to get Colchicine.
I just found out the other day that it has medical uses. Do you feel a case of gout coming on?
What is colchicine?
Colchicine is an oral, plant-based prescription alkaloid derived from the dried seeds of the autumn crocus or meadow saffron (Colchicum autumnale) that, depending on the brand or generic, may be used to:

treat and prevent gout flares in adults (Colcrys, generics)
prevent gout flares in adults and children aged 16 years and older (Colcrys, Gloperba, Mitigare, generics)
treat symptoms of Behçet disease (BD), such as redness, swelling, or pain) (generics)
Treat familial Mediterranean fever (FMF) in adults and children 4 years of age or older (Colcrys)
reduce the risk of heart attack, stroke, and cardiovascular death in adults with heart disease or at high risk of developing it (Lodoco tablets).

Colchicine has been used forever to convert daylilies. Patroit Daylily site has excellent instructs on the process.

Yet.. one need the plant worth the effort.

Found Bill Waldrop's pic.. note how one can see the growing tip as shown also in my pics. Trust showing it is compliant giving him full credit for it's source (?).

https://garden.org/pics/2013-1... I had forgotten the trick using food coloring.

So today I dabbed some long held surflan onto the two larger crowns. Sans any penetrant.. dab of water too. That pre-emergent noted for halting cell division. Idle minds...

Should look to score a quantity of dips.. on the 'cost effective' route. Stella d'Oro ever been converted? Someone local possibly needs a thinning (?). Not my first choice.. first angle that comes to mind.

Suggestions? Seems to me one needs some experience before cutting up the good stuff.

'Stella de Oro' was converted and available; I do not know if the tet version is still available (or if it would still be a tet.). You can check whether any diploid cultivar has ever been converted and successfully used to produce a registered daylily (or apparently successfully used) by doing an advanced search at https://daylilydatabase.org/se... searching for tets only and listing the cultivar of interest in the parentage field. Doing so for Stella returns a list of nine registered daylilies with tet Stella de Oro in their parentage. They were registered between 1988 and 2019. The 2019 registration, I believe was from Europe. A tetraploid version of Stella may be difficult to find in North America. Stella would seem to be a good choice for practising conversions.

Colchicine is more difficult to obtain but it is still possible - Tree Mail me if you would like more information.

"Colchicine is a classical anti-mitotic drug which blocks mitotic cells in metaphase. It binds to soluble tubulin to form tubulin-colchicine complexes in a poorly reversible manner, which then binds to the ends of microtubules to prevent the elongation of the microtubule polymer". <-- online data.

"Tetraploids of daylily have taken a leading position among the daylily cultivars due to desirable traits such as vigorous growth and flowers with more intense colour. In our previous studies, several tetraploids of daylily cultivars 'Blink of an Eye' and 'Berlin Multi' were obtained using in vitro techniques with different antimitotic agents (colchicine, oryzalin, trifluralin, and amiprophos methyl). The purposes of this study were to evaluate changes in daylily tetraploids in relation to their diploid counterparts and to assess variation among diploids and tetraploids derived from genetically homogenous plant material treated with antimitotic agents


Maurice noted in a previous thread on the topic: "Since I think that most modern daylily hybridizers do not do what Arisumi did (remove all the crown tissue that could produce new diploid fans from those buds that Stamile mentioned) is why I think that nearly every tet conversion will be basically diploid at some time as they grow and increase". Makes perfect sense to me.

Continuing my 'left field' ideas. I grow my dip seeds to say ~6" tops.. give them a haircut to 2-3 range.. dry them slightly to accentuate rehydration.. bunch them evenly and soak their root tip area in a surflan solution.. which I have. Q always then is: how much "dope" mixed at what rate and then length of exposure. Or colchicine useage.

So.. get the agent in the very young plant.

I wonder if the Kinetin growth simulant is needed?
Not reaaly costly.. shipping costs same as product.

FWIW.. 4 0f 5 plants in ground now are showing a center tip starting to green and form the 1st stages of a growing tip. Those 2 larger ones got an application of surflan.. who knows... will monitor their appearance.

What I believe I learned to date: I cut those 4 growing crowns around the center green after cutting the stem down. With care.. I flicked the pulp like growth from around the growing tip w/o damaging it.. down to the firm crown surface. Growing tip essentially intact.

The plant which had cutting/damage to the growing tip pushed a growth out the side.. which I removed. Have no idea if growth tip damage promoted that side shoot. Yet I learned a few things practicing.. I think.

Per previous above:
Plant #1 w the vigorous center growth is sending a side shoot near the base. For now it'll stay, I removed a side shoot from #2 and it has stalled. Reminder these are tet 'carvings' for practice. I removed an outside leaf inhibiting growth below on #1.

The 17 Stella de Oro crowns were treated a couple days ago after one sent a new spear from the meristem bud. Treating agent 1-1 surflan to water (flows better).. dash of acetone for a penetrant.

I have a sm (nice root calories though) fan of my own dip to treat.. waiting for a sign of some green in the meristem.

Monitoring the Stella crowns this aft, a couple showing promise.




Promising I hope given the irregular growth at the tip of the top pic w the bottom one not far behind. All 17 of these Stella separated, carved and potted. No in pot acclimation for the growing plants.

FWIW.. several more Stella are showing promise. 1 plant is intent on sending outside shoots at crown level w nothing at the meristem inside. I'm going to let this whole group do their thing going forward.
As mentioned I think earlier I took the beginning of a side bud off my own one dip treated. That meristem showing some growth now albeit minor.
The in ground tet making the most process is now vigorously sending 2 side shoots-- which 'look like' normal growth. This being an experiment I'll let them go for comparison purposes vs the center growth, which is showing cabbage like growth. If a dip I wanted to complete the process I'd let the center advance more and then cut away those shoots and the crown they were coming from.
This thread are my notes, and open for experienced input. Very motivated for next spring when I start treating my own. Who knows.. 7 is EE-E here.. I might get a dab of TET 7 pollen to trial haul. And it puts flowering over fan making. I had a smallish group south side dry in poor culture.. which I kept breaking scapes off.. and still they came.

https://members.tripod.com/~h_...
YES.. the writer is correct.. per confusion per mixing surflan/oryzalin solutions.

1. stock solution?? nonsense. If your needing a solution to treat less than 10-15 plants a yr I laugh.
The writers conclusion: anywhere between 1:100 - 1/15,000 parts surflan is effective to produce polyploidy.. IE: the doubling of the target chromosome.

2.So.. my "solution" onto Stella trials is in the range of 25%... sorta strong LOL. Yet in line w the author/scientist conclusion oryzalin had a hide range of effective effective use minus downside effect. YET... surflan stays in solution w H2O pooorly.. I know this well using it for intended use... shake well often for sure. So.. the resulting treatment of meristems here has variance. I have Stella looking very similar... a couple directly via the meristem.. late few now pushing from the crown top/

3. I do note: treatment of Stella has produced few DOA/no meristems.. a couple are sending shoots at crown level.. only 1-2 sent below crown top level out of 17. Possibly referenced author above is correct: surflan/oxyzalin ratio has a wide effective/safe range. I lean that direction.

Bill Waldrop's pic here have been a great help. From his site--> Bill's work.. recovering growth will vary per appearance at emergence.

I had to laugh per one remark as the above pic appearing to show the leaves being just 'trimmed across the top'. Could be... I've done that as an outside leaf can growing over the emerging cluster. Yet the Waldrop pic shows a promising outcome of treatment... his intent.



MINE: Stella Left: 12 & 6 o'clock positions growing via meristem centers.. far L very similar to R emerging via center.. much later.. fan side/root mass did vary.

Stella Rt at 6 and 3 o'clock position showing center meristem growth. 12 o'clock plant position 2x from crown center.

Apparently a 25% solution of Surflan does not kill Stella .. so far.

My own dip struggled .. now slipped into the ground w a small side shoot forming.. IF the danged tree rats didn't break that off. I had removed a previous one just forming. Yet the crown area was wider vs Stella and held more solution after cutting out to meristem. Stronger dose, yet it carried a cupboard load of calories in the roots. Who knows.. meristem death or ?? I'll see how it responds going forward.
Agreed upon: by those doing conversion the game is more art than science by miles. The list of variables is long. I read some believe colchicine is very hard on plants.
This thread is being continued-expanded to offer any possible help/insights for another newb like myself who might gleam a thing.. or 2.

'Practice tet' follow up.

L to Rt..
#1 crown is done top half at least ..DOA. Sm shoot coming from very bottom of crown/top. Now discarded. This plant never wanted to 'go'.
#3 is a fan from each side.. sliced and separated (now 2), the crown not brown/showing rot.
#2 I chose to take the active growth off the crown.. the inner material showing normal color.. no rot/brown.
#4 far rt has nice center growth.. nothing to any sides.


2nd pic.. 2,3 &4.
All of the original formation leaves from each plant are more rigid than the norm. #4 likely the most.
Note #1 unit of 2 .. one I pried off to allow it to continue sending it's own root system. It's mate on the other side sliced down thru the crown.. lots of stored calories under it.
#2 crown removed save the area the growth is originating from. Nice internal color as it should be per sliced area.
#4 far Rt.. last crown treated showing most promise. Looks to be extended meristem growth. I believe this plant rec'd the weakest solution.. failure to shake the container.. least drop size applied. NOTES...NOTES... grrrr. From memory.. not good.

Again this tet experiment for learning.. all of the piece were different sdlg's headed for composting. Stuck them in the ground.. why not.. if they grow out might be things of interest.
Slid the Stella into the ground also.. several show promise. Time'll tell.. that mostly is the conversion game.

My 'solution' strength is 20-25%.. surflan into water. The chem agent is 40.4% Oryzalin.. online mixes are all over the place.. and then some. Comedy.. one goes to apparent exacting lengths to make the "stock" mix and then goes bananas tossing together the actual mix for application.

One finds surflan mix rates from 1:100, 1:200, and the extreme from a guy.. DL one no less.. using ~1:140,000. How to mix that last rate.... From memory (look out) that's 10uM.

Gimme an eye dropper... calibrate those drops to a unit ANYONE can relate to.. mix away. Q becomes what ratio............20-25% apparently is not the death knell. Yet the ability of each cultivar to handle the junk will vary. So.... how far to scale it back.

EDIT/FORGOT to ad my guestimate ratio. Not set in stone--- considering 1:200-250 range. I do actually have a scale to weigh the surflan... won't bother.

NOTE: had to edit plant sequence numbers.. error original.. all L to Rt.

YET more edits...notes for myself.
--I read DMSO very hard on plant material.
--One source states surflan contains ingredients active as solvents. I find no reference to that..
same guy w the sloppy "stock" solution to application useage.

Surflan label:
-oryzalin: 3,5-dinitro-N4N4-dipropylsulfanilamide ...... 40.4%
Inert Ingredients ........................................................... 59.6%
Total ................................................................................ 100.0%

Tank mix--Surflan A.S. Alone
Make sure spray tank is clean and use only clean water. Fill
spray tank 1/2 to 3/4 full. Start agitation and add the required
amount of Surflan A.S. Continue agitation and finish filling the
spray tank. Maintain continuous agitation until application is
completed.

WHICH... IMO makes a 'stock solution' nonsense. This orange chem doesn't stay mixed... clinges to container inside surfaces.. try to wash it out.. takes some effort. Shake it very well..
the mixed solution prepared.. and apply... before it settles out.

The 'Stella' 20-25% solution had a small dose of acetone.. the chem mirror image of DSMO save one de-tale. Acetone has a carbon atom whereas the DMSO has a sulfur atom at that location: they do the same oxidizing routine. Surflan is noted as being highly soluble in acetone... while I assume DMSO can/does make surflan more soluble, I find no reference to it specifically.

De-tales. Gets a mite deep I suspect to get a conversion rate worth it. A challenge.. something to learned. I doubt colchicine is the conversion agent used by the few proficient at it.

Vastlan herbicide is triclopyr choline.. essentially the same effect as oryzalin on plants. Weeds noted to build resistance to it. To be investigated... even less harsh on meristems??

??'s
--my tet experients used plants at or headed to the compost pile.. those meristems looked cream white. Essentially I think that's same appearance of Stella's cut after clump separation: seems wrong. Tets I waited mostly to note meristem starting to green.. then treated. Seems like (beware.. from memory) the 1 0f 4 tets whereas the crown died and pushed a fan bottom side did not green/wasn't given adequate time (?).

?? inground treatments. Carving the challenge.. have ideas.

?? Kinetin arrived today.. how much to use?

"TO MAKE A ORYZALIN STOCK SOLUTION (about 100 mM, or 0.1 M)
Measure 9 mL water into the graduated cylinder. Leave this solution in the graduated cylinder.

Using an eye dropper or small pipette, add Surflan AS to the graduated cylinder until a total of 10 mL are contained in the cylinder. You will be adding formulation until the total reaches the 10 mL line (9 + 1 = 10). The graduated cylinder should now contain 9 mL water plus 1 mL Surflan AS formulation.

[NOTE: You can also use an analytical balance to measure the formulation. Place the small bottle (or a disposable pan) on the balance. Tare the bottle. Measure 0.857 g of the Surflan AS formulation into the bottle (or pan). If you use a disposable pan, be sure to rinse it into the bottle with some of the water from the 9 ml in the graduated cylinder.]

Pour the contents of the cylinder into the small bottle. Cap (close) the bottle, and shake vigorously. Oryzalin is barely water-soluble.

Slowly uncap the bottle, and pour the solution back into the graduated cylinder. Repeat transfer from cylinder to bottle and back again three or four times.

Cap the bottle of stock solution. The concentration of this stock solution is 100 millimolar (or 0.1 M). Each mL of stock solution contains 0.034636 g oryzalin, or 34.64 mg oryzalin.

Label the bottle of stock solution: "STOCK SOLUTION - 100 millimolar (100 mM).

DILUTE 1,000X to 10,000X BEFORE USE".<<< ?? 10x variance.