Roses forum→Rejuvenation pruning

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Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
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Calif_Sue
Jul 16, 2013 12:08 AM CST

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Ahhh, I see. I agree, lovely for living, I have been here just over 2 years but it's cooler at night than where I moved from, San Jose. Many of my daylilies don't open as well. Roses are happy here though!
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(Zone 9b)
roseseek
Jul 16, 2013 1:17 AM CST
San Jose is just as bad. Beautiful temperatures to live in, but not for rooting roses. Tom Liggett studied how Sequoia propagated roses and tried to copy it at his place in old San Jose. I warned him it was too cold and damp, but he had to see for himself. EVERY cutting rotted. Cold and wet permits the cutting to just sit there doing very little while pathogens "eat" them. Hot with high humidity pushes their cellular activity, speeds their growth tremendously so they callus and root, while the high heat inhibits rot. I discovered this when volunteering at The Huntington propagating roses for their sales and gardens. Cuttings would just sit in early spring or in weather like what it was in spring. Warmish days with cooler nights would slow them down so many would rot. Those which did root, took weeks to callus. But, once the days were in the nineties and above and evening temps remained around seventy or above, and most roses rooted in seven to ten days. This was an outdoor mist table, exposed to full southern sun and open above it. Three sides were protected by lathe so the air flow was excellent. Wind would frequently blow the mist off the table, but the cuttings rooted right down the line. The same varieties struck in winter and held in the orchid greenhouse (they turned the mister off in winter to prevent freezing) took three to four months to root. Strike them in summer and the same roses rooted in a week. No kidding!
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
Sunset Zone 15
Plant Database Moderator Region: California Cottage Gardener Garden Photography Roses Clematis
Houseplants Foliage Fan Keeper of Poultry Dog Lover Birds Hummingbirder
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Calif_Sue
Jul 16, 2013 1:40 AM CST

Moderator

Thank Kim, that's quite interesting and explains why I did not have much success the couple of times I have tried. I guess there are a few that are super easy to root no matter what the conditions are.
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(Zone 9b)
roseseek
Jul 16, 2013 9:10 AM CST
Yes, Sue, some root no matter what the conditions or time of year. Some refuse to root no matter what method, time of year or location. They run the full gamut. Some are very specific as to the time of year you try them. Another example from Tom Liggett; he told me years ago he only rooted Mermaid in August and September. Any other time of year for him there in old San Jose, it failed. Those two months, it rooted without issue. That, to me, sounds very much like a heat issue, not just the heat of the time of year, but also the ripeness condition of the material. At the time he shared that with me, I was rooting Mermaid at The Huntington any time of the summer without a problem. The differences were mist and heat. Sequoia could also root Mermaid any time during the hot weather. Carolyn didn't strike cuttings unless it was hot. The chances of them failing were very high when the weather was cool, but they could push pretty much anything through in very short order, as long as it was hot.
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
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porkpal
Jul 16, 2013 9:22 AM CST
Here where it is always humid and very hot 4 - 6 months of the year, Mermaid roots very easily any time I have tried, but I have never started a cutting in mid winter.

On the other hand, I have never been able to root Lady Banks.
Porkpal
[Last edited by porkpal - Jul 16, 2013 9:24 AM (+)]
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(Zone 9b)
roseseek
Jul 16, 2013 9:53 AM CST
You might try wrapping cuttings. http://pushingtheroseenvelope.... Some of the first I tried were Banksiae lutescens and Fortuniana and they ALL rooted. I went from ZERO, total, complete failure to nearly 100% success using this method. I didn't create it, but was introduced to it. It will require tweaking to fit your climate and conditions, but it can help you propagate things you never thought you could. I would suggest starting at the beginning (linked above) and follow it through to the most recent entry so you have the full information.

If you hold them too warm, they rot. Too cold, they rot. Too wet, they rot. Like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, it has to be "just right", meaning within the tolerance zone. Once you find where you can hold them under the right temps and when the optimum condition of your roses is, you will love how easy and quick this method is. Everything you need is in the posts. Feel free to take it and run with it, experiment!
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member Dog Lover Cat Lover Keeper of Poultry Keeps Horses I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Plant Identifier Raises cows Roses Farmer Celebrating Gardening: 2015
porkpal
Jul 16, 2013 11:24 AM CST
Thank you, I do want to try that method. I have rotted a lot of cuttings in my time...
Porkpal
(Zone 9b)
roseseek
Jul 16, 2013 12:11 PM CST
In Newhall, I could easily root things using Mel Hulse's "Rose Rustler's Toolkit" method. Not here! EVERYTHING I tried, using every method I tried, no matter how I tweaked them, rotted. Too arid to leave them uncovered. Too humid to cover them. This makes use of the optimums in the perfect time of year. Planting callused cuttings deeply in the soil so the soil keeps them damp, cool and dark, while leaving only the top inch or two uncovered works perfectly. As long as the cuttings are as dormant as possible so they contain enough stored nutrients to feed themselves until they form leaves to take over that function.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Jul 16, 2013 12:14 PM CST
Kim.......

Given that we have very different climates, what would you consider too cold ? I was thinking about trying this method and popping the wraps into the vegetable crisper. It is certainly too hot outside as we are in the 90s and head for the 100s.

I was also thinking of creating a mini greenhouse out of a clear rubbermaid and putting it in the woodshed. Since the shed gets intense morning light, I thought I would cover the rubbermaid until the shade hit. I'll have plenty of heat.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
(Zone 9b)
roseseek
Jul 16, 2013 12:56 PM CST
"Too cold" for holding the wraps is under about sixty degrees. Less than that and they are produce being held in a vegetable crisper and like produce, they hold in the same form as you put them in. They won't callus, but they will continue using their stored nutrients until they collapse from malnutrition. The optimum temps for callusing appear to be from about sixty to just under seventy degrees. Much over seventy and they attempt to leaf out and your chances of mold and rot increase greatly. Remember, they are being held in tight contact with DAMP, no drippy, paper. Mold grows readily in warmer temps. More than about 69 degrees appears to be perfect for the paper and cuttings to mold, getting gray and fuzzy.

Also remember that bare root roses are held in damp storage at just above freezing temps. The colder they are held, the slower their cellular activity. Properly stored bare roots have been held for six and seven months and remained viable for planting. The warmer the temperatures they're held under, the shorter the length of time they can sustain themselves, and the greater the chances of them molding. Between sixty and about sixty-nine degrees, you can hold cuttings safely for two weeks. Holding them longer has substantially reduced their viability once planted. It appears they use up their stored nutrients before they can push roots and foliage to feed themselves.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Oct 10, 2014 10:04 PM CST
I was taking photos today of the rocks I am using to make a dry creek bed in on of my street beds and at the same time snapped a couple of photos of two of the roses I've rejuvenated from little more than one cane wonders. It was the wrong time of day to take photos, but I was taking a break from stacking wood.

In this photo, you can't even see that there are roses in the top tier because they had been deer pruned for years. Mrs. J was in her 90s when I bought the house and couldn't protect them nightly as had been her habit when she could get out to her roses. btw ... this is the ugly house I bought.

Thumb of 2014-10-11/RoseBlush1/5d4b17

A couple years later with some rejuvenation pruning and some deer protection.

Thumb of 2014-10-11/RoseBlush1/e0ad03 Thumb of 2014-10-11/RoseBlush1/8d2c2b

Today, a few more years later...

Thumb of 2014-10-11/RoseBlush1/157289 Thumb of 2014-10-11/RoseBlush1/e6223b

I didn't prune my roses this year because of the drought. I didn't want to encourage any new growth. I stopped dead heading a couple of weeks ago so that they could harden off for winter. This is our third year of extreme drought, so they are not as full as they have been a couple of years ago. They will come back.

Smiles,
Lyn

I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Oct 11, 2014 11:40 AM CST
Lynn said: "this is the ugly house I bought". First of all, I don't think it's ugly. Secondly, look at all the improvements that you have accomplished in a short period of time. I think it has nice curb appeal - the color change, the roses, the lattice and improved maintenance. And finally, it doesn't look just like a "house", it's a "home" - there's a difference.
Next, the before and after photos of your roses bushes are like night and day - amazing results - you certainly have a gift.
I have a 15 year old Tineke that has one strong cane (4') remaining that I would like to save. Has 2 flowers on it presently and some blackspot (sprayed 2 days ago). Aside from pruning it this Spring is there anything else I can do to give it a second chance? I have been using Mill's Rose fertilizer both granular and liquid and fish emulsion over the past 2 years. I have stopped fertilizing and have not deadheaded over the last few weeks. I think part of the problem with my older rose bushes is I never pruned them accept if it was out of control. That's what I did with Blaze climber only to find out recently through research that I did not prune it correctly (cut the canes instead the the laterals) last Fall (wrong time of the year). I will correct my mistakes this Spring.
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Oct 11, 2014 6:43 PM CST
Margie ..

Thanks for the complements. I thought the house was pure ugly because I hate that color of brown ... Hilarious!

I don't particularly think of myself as a gifted rose gardener. I simply was trained by breeders of roses and see roses through the eyes of a breeder. That required learning about roses in a different way than most people learn about roses.

The rose gardeners I think of as truly gifted are the millions of people in the US and around the world who grow beautiful, vigorous roses and maintain glorious rose gardens without my specialized training. Those gardeners always give me a sense of awe.

My training gives me an edge, that's true. That's what I want to share on ATP. Site users will either use the information, or part of it or none of it, depending on their own experiences with roses and their own gardening philosophy. At least I've put the information out there.

I don't think your roses didn't thrive because of lack of pruning. I think other variables were at play.

Zuzu wrote one of the best articles about pruning I have ever read for ATP. It's true that she doesn't have to deal with the climate issues you have in your garden, but her basic premise that you do not have to prune roses to have healthy plants is spot on.

http://garden.org/ideas/view/z...

Roses are genetically programmed to to come back from pruning, but not all roses like to be pruned hard and will sulk if you mess with them. There is no lineage information available, so I can't tell you if 'Tineke' falls into that group.

I'll contact you by Tmail to give you some tips about bringing the rose back.

Smiles,
Lyn



I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Margie
NY (Zone 7a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Photo Contest Winner 2020
MargieNY
Oct 11, 2014 10:29 PM CST
Thanks Lynn. I look forward to hearing from you - whenever you get a chance - no rush. I read the article by Zuzu and yes I have to agree it is a most informative article. I have also read this article:
Rose Care in My Long Island Garden
By Rita (@Newyorkrita) on February 4, 2014
Observe, observe, observe
We are fortunate to "see" & appreciate nature in ways others are blind.
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Oct 11, 2014 10:39 PM CST
Yes, Rita's article is another one that I think is great.

Smiles,
Lyn
I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.

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