I really am not pleased that photos of some of my aroids, many of which are 5, 10,15, even 20 years old, are being lumped into the 'new' Proven Winners plants. Someone 'liked' a photo of one of my very old Monstera deliciosa 'Thai Constellation' leaves that I put into the database a long time ago. That plant was purchased WAY BACK in like 2004/5. Many MANY years before the 'advent' of all of these renamed plants with TM cultivar names by Proven Winners. Now it appears under the listing for 'Monstera deliciosa MYSTERIA (tm) Spotsylvania.
This plant predates these Proven Winner plants by what...TWENTY YEARS?
It was not named this when I bought it, and it is not named this NOW.

Its just Monstera deliciosa 'Thai Constellation'.

Placing old plants into this new naming system when that is NOT what they are is false and misleading. Everyone else who ever entered a photo of a Thai Constellation has had their plants moved into this classification.

Its false, its misleading, and it should be reversed

That's interesting Gina. I don't know anything about that, but I will be watching this thread to learn more.
Is this something akin to how seed sellers append a "varietal" name to a species to make it more marketable?

ProvenWinners has taken plants, some SPECIES plants (like Philodendron billietiae), some cultivars, and some hybrids, and RENAMED THEM with trademarked names and marketed them. Many people see these 'new names' and think that they are buying a NEW, DIFFERENT plant than whatever old one preceded it. Yes, it's a marketing ploy to sell more plants. It's hard for me to believe that this site has been pulled in to allowing these names to be the MAIN NAMES now for these plants. Most are aroids. But not all.

I don't like that either. It implies that they did something proprietary and unique, and that they should be paid for it accordingly.

Other people whose plants have been placed into this Proven Winners listing are photos by:
@Joy , @sedumzz , @pniksch , @carlysuko , @GigiAdeniumPlumeria , @mjsponies, @psa , and @Als1986111

Tell it as it T-I-S tis! It's okay if the plants are actually new, but to shift established species and varieties to a "new" name listing is improper. Those names should be "also known as" synonyms in the database. It works that way for reclassifications of species/genera and should work for marketing ploys as well. While a science-based reclassification can be confusing to lay people, it gives a clearer idea of relationships between species for those who study systematics. To raise a commercial identification above a scientific identification leads to MORE confusion rather than less, especially to those concerned with technical aspects of identification.

Money DOES make the world go round in commerce, but shouldn't in science.

Interesting, I didn't even notice the TM name, thanks for tagging me. I searched for Thai Constellation and it shows up as "Also sold as Thai Constellation". I've seen some entries that you can like the name and the most like becomes the "main name".

I believe the International Aroid Society is the only naming authority for Aroids, and only they have the right to approve new cultivars (with a couple of exceptions).
See: https://www.aroidcultivars.org...

So my take would be that Proven Winners has not observed the rules for naming cultivars correctly as the cv.s are not registered with IAS.

There is an International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants. This would be the code that covers naming authorities.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Other agencies such as UPOV register newly produced cv.s. I have a suspicion that certain marketers are using this agency to rename plants.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Stealing plant cultivars has been going on as long as I have been a gardener (60+ years), but it still galls me.

Yes the IAS is the only naming authority for aroid cultivars.
I think that this just really sucks. If someone bought one of these PW monsteras and wanted to make an entry using the made up silly name they have it for the database, fine (I guess…not correct, but ok). But I don't want my plant lumped in with this fake name. Because mine is not the same as that plant.

I just requested my photo to just be moved to the generic entry since mine definitely was not purchased from Proven Winners and don't want to mislead anyone, searching the database for TM names and my photo shows up. I upload photo more to track when I obtained the plant than the actual name. It gives me comparison when I look back a few years after how big it's grown. I probably need to pay attention to "main name" when searching the database. Mine was purchased at BJs with a generic tag: "WF Thai Monstera", and just noted it in the caption more so for my personal tracking.

This can't possibly be correct. Renaming the 'Thai Constellation' variety and listing that as an also known is wrong on its face, because 'Thai Constellation' is the older name and has priority.

If a company takes a known variety and produces a series and trademark for it (which we know they do), they should not automatically be the controlling name for the entry in the database. I don't know what authority might have determined that the proven winners variety is the same as this one, but there should be such an authority to cite. And even in that case, the new name can't just become the primary name in the database. I feel like there is a procedural issue here, changing the primary name out from under the existing contributors, and possibly a database issue if in the main listing name it always prefers trademarks and proprietary series names over the actual, original cultivar name.

@zuzu Can you provide some clarity here?
Monstera deliciosa Mysteria™ Spotsylvania

Yes I agree.

The name 'Thai Constellation' was never patented. However, even though it was not, it is the accepted name for this tissue culture created plant that was brought to market over 20 years ago. Before Proven Winners was even a brand

Now that Proven Winners is marketing the plant, it's likely that our members will be buying the plant under the trade name. The trade name does take precedence in our database, but I have edited the entry to show 'Thai Constellation' as the cultivar name rather than an also-sold-as name.

Monstera deliciosa Mysteria™ Spotsylvania

I appreciate the correction of the cultivar name. I believe that making the new trademarked name the primary name on the listing, and all links on this site to it, is technically incorrect, legally problematic, and morally questionable, though. It will definitely dissuade me from sending people to the database and I'll have to reconsider my contributions to it.

I understand and support the desire for users to be able to find their plants by each of the names they are likely to find it under. But trademarks cannot be used by anyone other than the owner, or those who pay royalties, and burying the actual, long-standing name of a plant is confusing, deceptive, and inaccurate. Beyond the abhorrence of a large company gaining control over a plant through deceptive renaming and abuse of IP law, changing the primary name of a plant in an impartial database goes against all international standards and precedence.

Besides it being objectively wrong to mislabel plants this way in a database, there is a legitimate complaint that previously uploaded pictures are now being used to market a plant from a particular company that has hijacked the original to pretend its their own, and employed the force of law to protect it. I strongly object to being made to advertise for the company this way on a previously publicly available plant.

Obviously I personally think the substitution of trademarks for variety names is a problematic trend from companies trying to extend legal ownership of plant varietals beyond the standard legal protections. And I further believe that it is immoral to rename a plant this way and add a trademark on a well-established plant as if the company has any ownership claim on it. But even if the owners of this site don't feel the same way, this site should not be a front for Proven Winners, and should not create the monopoly this company is seeking by making their new names the de facto standard the moment they decide they want to "own" another variety.

As a postscript--I'm surprised this is even an issue. Is Proven Winners asserting that their new variety is genetically the same as Thai Constellation? I really would have expected a new entry in the database just for this Proven Winners cultivar, since these companies rarely make assertions like that, opening themselves up to invalidation of their marks.

Paul, I could not agree with you more and could not have said this better.
I too think this is legally problematic, technically incorrect, confusing, deceptive and inaccurate.
There are pages on Facebook where people are actually buying these and posting (with species plants) is this the same plant as 'species xyz'?

Here are some examples of the giving new names to species plants.
Colocasia escuelenta...the plain green form...yes, the invasive one here in Florida, parts of GA, and other coastal southern states...they are calling Colocasia 'Heart of the Jungle'. Plain green colocasia has never had a 'cultivar' name because its...the cornerstone species. It already has cultivars and hybrids...like Pharoah's Mask, Mojito, Midori, White Lava, etc.

Alocasia reginula.
Not only is this plant a species, but it already has a tissue culture cultivar that's been on the market for what...30 years? Its Black Velvet
They are calling it Mystic Ninja

Alocasia melo. A species plant. I have been growing this for over 15 years. They are calling it Alocasia Mythic Dragonite

Alocasia zebrina. Another species plant. they have named this 'Jungle Cat'

Alocasia amazonica. As if there wasn't enough of a controversy stretching back decades on this plant. Originally bred as a hybrid in the period between 1930-1940 by Salvatore (Sam) Mauro in Miami at his nursery, the Amazon Nursery. A. sanderiana x A. watsonia. He never patented it, but named it Alocasia amazonica after the nursery. The problem is, his nomenclature. As a hybrid it should have been sold as Alocasia hybrid Amazonica. But his selling it as Alocasia amazonica led the plant buying public to think it was a species. Then in 1993, this plant was put into tissue culture by Denis Rotolante, and he selected out a clone that he brought to market as ALocasia POLY or POLLY, as a dwarf selection of Alocasia x amazonica.
Now they have renamed this plant Alocasia Mythic Nessie.

Not only alocasias...there is a photo on their website of what is clearly an Anthurium clarinervium...they are saying its a hybrid but it sure looks like the species...they are calling it by the name Arching Armor Alexandrite is Right...? What does that even mean?

They are marketing the species Philodendron glorious as Prismacolor Gloriosum

And it goes on and on

psa said: As a postscript--I'm surprised this is even an issue. Is Proven Winners asserting that their new variety is genetically the same as Thai Constellation? I really would have expected a new entry in the database just for this Proven Winners cultivar, since these companies rarely make assertions like that, opening themselves up to invalidation of their marks.

It does look like they did acknowledge this as also known as 'Thai Constellation' from their details of their description in the link below. One of the NGA member had gotten a permission to post their photo in our database, the same photo as advertised in Proven Winners online:

https://www.provenwinners.com/...

Mine came most likely from Costa Farms, they still sell this as 'Thai Constellation', that's why I just requested my photo to be under the generic name so it doesn't mistakenly be taken as photo of plant purchased from Proven Winners:

https://costafarms.com/search?...

Walmart still sells variegated monstera deliciosa as 'Thai Constellation' and looks like their vendor is Costa Farms:
https://www.walmart.com/search...

Home Depot also sells variegated monstera as 'Thai Constellation' from under different vendors with different price points:
https://www.homedepot.com/s/th...

Etsy sellers sell some variegated Monstera as 'Thai Constellation'

https://www.etsy.com/search?q=...

eBay sellers sell some variegated monstera as 'Thai Constellation'
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.htm...

As I was searching for clues on what was wrong with my variegated monstera and how to repot them, a thread from garden.org started by Gina about variegated monstera, with topic related to Thai Constellation showed up in my online search.

The thread "Just variegated Monstera. I know you have them." in Variegated Foliage forum

There were also a lot of self help tips and videos online that showed up as 'Thai Constellation' but very few under the Proven Winners TM name for a variegated monstera.

IMHO the best solution is to restore the Thai Constellation as the main name and also sold as the TM name, since Proven Winners acknowledged this as Thai Constellation in their website.

And this is a great thread started by Gina, which IMHO can be renamed 'Thai Constellation' Plant Database Name, so this thread can be tied under Thai Constellation topics when searching online.

And I just realized this is a great topic to also link under https://garden.org/forums/view...

Not sure if a topic or thread can be linked under two forums.