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Nov 8, 2024 11:52 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
I've alluded to a new garden project and, well, this is it...

The project is something Gena and a couple of other ladies wanted to start up. For some reason they think I know something about gardening...I've been shanghaied!!! Blinking The ladies have a ministry where they have Bible study at the local county jail with the women inmates each week, encouraging them, helping them communicate with family, providing a few material things that they need, etc.,. There are usually six to twelve women inmates at the jail at any given time...some for days, or weeks, months, or even years. Gena and the ladies, along with some giving hearts out in the county, also put together a Thanksgiving meal and a Christmas meal for all the inmates and employees each year.

The garden project quickly got the jail administrator's blessing along with the sheriff's and other peoples...especially the jailhouse cook's blessing...she's wanting more fresh vegetables for the inmates! Thumbs up The garden gives the women a chance to work together as a team and hopefully to see rewards for their efforts. Our small county unfortunately doesn't have any "programs" for rehabbing the inmates...it's a situation where the inmates mostly just "count blocks" each day. The garden project is giving the women a chance to get outside in the fresh air and sunshine, and with the earth beneath their feet. They look forward to the time working in the garden. It also provides some much needed exercise for them. Most of these women inmates have had a tough life...either by choice or circumstance. A big goal of the garden is to increase their personal sense of self-worth and self-esteem...to realize something *good* that they've created as part of a team...something they can be proud of in a good way. And, just possibly, they'll re-enter society a better person from this experience and strive to continue "growing good things".

Prior to being shanghaied I had forgotten how much gardening can cost on a larger scale. We started from scratch...no tools, no nothing. Thankfully, we've managed to get some help buying a few tools and we've had a very generous soul to come in first to disc the ground and another one to come behind that one with their tractor-mounted rototiller. Remember, we're just coming out of a hot, dry 5-week drought and the garden ground is hard-pack. We would not be at this point without those to generous hearts. Smiling

The first day I went out to mark a plot beside the jail I took a sharpshooter with me to make slits to stick some quickly made privet hedge stakes/flags in to mark the corners...I managed to get the sharpshooter in the ground (with a lot of effort) only 3 inches or so! Blinking It was hard! The area is in a major power-line ROW and adjacent to where a large water tank was erected. From all the bits of glass and small pieces of metal we find I think the guy that used to have a bodyshop had his junkyard extending back from his shop to this area...the body shop was years and years before the jail was built here. After everyday that I'm there, at the end of the day I empty my pockets of pieces of glass and metal...it *is* a jail setting so we try to do our "due diligence" the best that we can.

Anyhow, the ground is sandy loam and it tilled down *maybe* 5-6 inches deep...with hard-pack beneath it. I sent a soil sample off and was amazed that the soil test results came came back with a pH at 6.4 with both P and K being reasonable (P being high, but not bad as it could have been!). It was a good report...better than what I started with here at home! Hurray! Thumbs up

So, fast-forward a few weeks... The women, with some help from some male trustees got some used t-posts (donated by one of the ladies) in the ground. They're kinda backwards to my way of thinking, but they're up! Smiling We managed to come up with some insulators and so far there are two strands of wire and one strand of polywire up! Thumbs up The jail area is also in a deer area like my garden is. Thumbs down Last year I saw a nice 8-point casually crossing the highway beside the jail...like he owned the place!!! Grumbling The sole protection right now for the garden are a couple of fall decor scarecrows at each in of the garden. Big Grin

The garden plot sits roughly 130' from the nearest water and probably a bit farther to electricity. The actual planting area is roughly 60'x30'...we're looking at having six wide rows with wide paths in between...OCD-Me strikes again! Rolling my eyes. There is a driveway between the jail and the garden so we can't have permanent water hoses nor electrical lines coming to the garden. Thankfully we had a local business help us out on a few garden tools and water hoses so they can work the ground some, in shifts, and we have enough water hose to drag back and forth (remember..."exercise"!!! Thumbs up ). The problem, though, is powering the electric fence...the only option is a 12v charger and battery...either with a solar panel or recharging the battery every few weeks. I've got hopes of something materializing for that soon (they've already got some collards and cabbage planted). Anyhow, we're still working on that and I have a prayer that a drip-system might be possible in the future, too. Rome wasn't built in a day!!! Thumbs up

We're looking to put in another row of collards and maybe more cabbage...seems like a lot, but they'll possibly/hopefully be feeding 50-70 individuals. Towards the end of the year we're going to put in a row+ of onions. I'd like them to get some carrots planted but we don't have the ground ready for them and it might be too late(?) for them. Currently, there's really not enough collards planted, but Gena wanted the girls to plant *something*...kind of gives them more "ownership" of the garden other than just moving dirt around and pulling grass. Smiling It's a start! Smiling

So, between this up and coming garden and our garden here at home....I'm tired. Hilarious! This was kind of long-winded and rambling and I'm sure I've omitted things, but maybe this gives you an idea of what we're doing. Feel free to share any thoughts you might have. I'm way out of my comfort zone with this...but, so are the folks doing most of the work.

Please say a little prayer, or send good wishes if so inclined, that the garden project at jail is a success and can continue on for years to come. They've got a good start with it but there's more hurdles to overcome...they're gettin' there with it, though!!! Thumbs up

An early photo of the women raking grass out of the freshly tilled garden plot...

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Nov 8, 2024 1:25 PM CST
Name: Rj
Just S of the twin cities of M (Zone 4b)
Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Level 1
Ed, any chance the city or county that is responsible for the jail could help out?

I helped out several years to landscape around the youthful offenders lock up, same general idea, exercise, sense of purpose etc. Our county that did the normal maintenance helped out with tools and plants
As Yogi Berra said, “It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”
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Nov 9, 2024 7:19 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
Thanks for the feedback, Rj, and thanks for the work at the youth offenders lock up...people don't realize how much things like that can benefit society in the long run...lots of people, kids and adults, just want a chance...a hope. The women at jail are mostly all up on drug charges or B&E charges related to drugs...they took a wrong turn on life's highway and then were swallowed up by a multi-headed evil that most of us can't comprehend. We realize that they aren't angels (just like us) and they realize that they've broken laws and are serving their time. We're trying to give them hope. It is amazing but many of these women lack basic knowledge of things we take for granted...at a recent Bible study they were writing letters to their kids and parents and one women did not know how to address and envelope. Only a couple of them have ever held any type of gardening tool. Things we take for granted are foreign to them. A chance, some hope, fresh air, sunshine, and seeing that other people *do* care about them...and maybe that will help them have a successful, productive, and happy life going forward. All we can do is "plant a seed". Group hug

So far we've got some help from some local businesses, women's church groups, and individuals for tools, water hose, and plants. These were all voluntarily given. The fence still needs at least a couple more strands wire/polywire around it and a good fence charger, an irrigation system, and a few more hand tools. I talked with the guy over streets and sanitation in our two-redlight town and they're going to get us a load or two of leaves for the garden...leaf season doesn't start until the end of November, though. I'll be thinking on how to get them more involved.

The jail doesn't have much in grounds-keeping equipment. They had a storage shed beside the jail that they cleaned out for the garden equipment to be stored in. One stipulation of having the garden is that they don't have to be involved other than making sure things go smoothly. We're a small county and from the years of experience with my wife working with the women at the jail they barely have a complete crew working on a regular basis...tight budget. I *will* be contacting officials within the county governments...cities, towns, and county to see if it they can help in some way...thanks for that encouragement! The garden has been blessed so far.

We got 0.66" of rain a couple of days ago and it's been cloudy/overcast since then. I haven't seen the garden since the rain but will be checking on it today. I'm hoping those collards and cabbage plants have started lifting their leaves up high! Hurray! Rain can do amazing things for a garden!!! Thumbs up
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Nov 9, 2024 7:43 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
One thing with the garden is that we want/need to plant things that will give really good production so that it can make an impact on the inmates' meals. Just a single serving of some fresh vegetables once or twice a week would be a big difference.

Right now the items we're working on are:
Collards (have planted 36 transplants so far)
Cabbage (have planted 12 transplants so far)
Broccoli (six plants)
Onions (planted seed yesterday)
Collards (planted seeds in six six-packs a couple of days ago)
Carrots (still iffy on whether to plant them this late(?))

I'm not sure how many plants to plant. Anything will be a "plus", but I wish I could get a better grip on how much to grow. Confused

The transplants were planted so that the women would have "something" growing in the garden. Until then they'd just be pulling grass and moving dirt. Planting those transplants gave them a sense of *progress*. Those transplants were kind of rough-looking...it's getting late in the season and we shopped a half-dozen places to find any that I felt *might* be worth a dollar(!!!! Glare ) a piece. We had a few plants donated that had gotten below "sale-able" quality.

Another aspect of this is "processing" the produce. Collards will take a lot of washing and prep work but the cook is all for growing them so apparently has considered the processing aspect. I've thought about cowpeas...I think they would grow like gangbusters in the soil, but...shelling might be an issue...that would be a *lot* of hand-shelling. I think the answer to that will be green beans. Right now I'm trying to decide on a variety for down here in the heat and humidity of the deep south. Okra will probably be a good crop to grow. Tomatoes will be "iffy" in regards to production quantity and disease/bugs but I'm sure we'll make a stab at them. Peppers, I think, could work okay...should we stick with sweet peppers on those???

Right now I feel just like my avatar looks... Blinking
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Nov 9, 2024 1:40 PM CST
(Zone 6a)
Intheswamp said:Peppers, I think, could work okay...should we stick with sweet peppers on those???


I would. I have experience supervising cooks in the Army where you are feeding a lot of people. Unfortunately, feeding the lowest common denominator, when you are cooking for large groups it means the menu cards are pretty low spice. They are a literally captive audience and everyone needs to be able to stomach what is cooked.

How do summer squash do in the heat, humidity, and pest pressure down there? It's a classic high output crop if you can keep it alive long enough to harvest. I grew Tromboncino (aka Zuchetta or Rampicante), a C. Moschata varietal, this year in the Upper Midwest. It's native to warmer climes and has the higher resistance to vine borers of the species. It's a winter squash but you can harvest earlier (12-16") when the skin is still thin and use it like a summer squash. It's on the bland side but it gets huge and is productive.

Malabar spinach might work. It's a tropical vining green that tastes sort of spinach like despite not being actual spinach. The texture is different because of moderate amounts mucilage but in an area where the even higher mucilage okra is on the menu it might work as well.

One source of help the county might be able to give you is non-incarcerated convicts - people on community service. It adds the overhead of scheduling and someone there during their work times to monitor and report on attendance. That would likely be people with no particular skill or experience but that just expands the benefit of what you are doing. Your program would be helping others with a recent history of legal issues even though they are not currently in jail. It might be more hassle than you want but a little investigation can help ou decide. We used them to help the state maintenance worker with armory maintenance during my time in the National Guard.
Last edited by PattyPan Nov 9, 2024 5:07 PM Icon for preview
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Nov 10, 2024 8:08 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
Thanks so much for the feedback, PattyPan. The "lowest denominator" makes good sense! Thumbs up We'll go with non-hot peppers...probably bells and/or bananas. Very good logic.

I grew tromboncino squash one year. Yeah, kinda bland but edible...with seasoning. Thumbs up I believe it's the non-hollow stems (I think I recall Thinking ) that makes them resistant to the borers. As for regular yellow squash...we may try some of those. They do make prolifically if you can dodge the borers. I had been thinking about trying some. I've grown them here at home in the past but not a LOT of demand from the family for them so I never planted but a handful and when the borers predictably infected them it wasn't a great loss to us. But, trying to plant something to feed 50 people and not have the crop collapse over a few days might be a chore. They're quick growing so maybe we'll try a half-row. Confused

I will definitely be keeping the "community service" individuals in mind. I *think* we have enough laborers, but might could use someone to come in on "non-gardening days" to water the garden. I don't think the ladies thought about the fact that a garden needs at least eyeballing daily and during drought and harvest needs attention every couple of days. We'll see how it goes. That's a great idea. I could see that possibly solving the watering problem. Thanks!!! Thumbs up

I appreciate the feedback, like I said...I just got drawn into this and just when I felt like I was beginning to get a grip on my little garden at home suddenly I'm standing here with the "deer-in-the-headlights" look...again. Blinking Big Grin
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Nov 10, 2024 3:42 PM CST
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River Twp, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Butterflies Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Greenhouse Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Ed, I guess you couldn't take the inmates to your own garden and get some free labor... Whistling
“The new dawn blooms as we free it, for there is always light –
if only we’re brave enough to see it, if only we’re brave enough to be it.”
~Amanda Gorman~

C/F temp conversion
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Nov 13, 2024 6:08 PM CST
Name: Sally
central Maryland (Zone 7b)
See you in the funny papers!
Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Procrastinator Charter ATP Member Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Houseplants
Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Region: Maryland Composter Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener
Bless you and Gena, Ed. I wish you great success Thumbs up

Too bad tomatoes seem so problem prone. Up here, you can usually count on pretty good results for at least some weeks.
Plant it and they will come.
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Nov 13, 2024 6:15 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
Thank you, Sally. It's coming along. Kind of a little late getting started but it's taking shape! We'll see how the tomatoes work out. They were working in it today. Smiling
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Nov 13, 2024 8:22 PM CST
Name: Sally
central Maryland (Zone 7b)
See you in the funny papers!
Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Procrastinator Charter ATP Member Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Houseplants
Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Region: Maryland Composter Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener
I beleive in all the positives you listed.. all the reasons I garden, plus the teamwork they may develop.

I liked purple bush beans being easier to see.
Plant it and they will come.
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Nov 13, 2024 9:18 PM CST
Name: Sandy B.
Ford River Twp, Michigan UP (Zone 4b)
(Zone 4b-maybe 5a)
Charter ATP Member Bee Lover Butterflies Birds I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Million Pollinator Garden Challenge
Seed Starter Vegetable Grower Greenhouse Region: United States of America Region: Michigan Enjoys or suffers cold winters
Ed, I was thinking about the beans - aren't "half-runner beans" commonly grown in the south? Not bush beans, but not pole beans either -- maybe @farmerdill has some insight on that.
“The new dawn blooms as we free it, for there is always light –
if only we’re brave enough to see it, if only we’re brave enough to be it.”
~Amanda Gorman~

C/F temp conversion
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Nov 14, 2024 8:13 AM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
sallyg said: I beleive in all the positives you listed.. all the reasons I garden, plus the teamwork they may develop.

I liked purple bush beans being easier to see.

Thumbs up

I think Contender will definitely fill one row. Maybe a row of "something different" might be interesting for them. Not sure what, maybe the purple beans. Whatever they plant needs to be high-production. Thumbs up
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Nov 14, 2024 12:40 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
Weedwhacker said: Ed, I was thinking about the beans - aren't "half-runner beans" commonly grown in the south? Not bush beans, but not pole beans either -- maybe @farmerdill has some insight on that.

Sandy, I've actually considered the "Mountain Half-Runner Beans", mostly from Dillards reviews/comments about them. There was something that put me off in regards to choosing those, though. I'm not sure that production would be up their with the Contenders. As for "taste"...I think I recall Dillard saying they were some of his favorite, though I could be wrong and thinking of the wrong bean. Shrug! I'll revisit that those and the purple bush beans that Sally mentioned.
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Nov 15, 2024 12:32 PM CST
Name: Dillard Haley
Augusta Georgia (Zone 8a)
Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Avid Green Pages Reviewer Garden Ideas: Master Level
Ed. You are correct. Mountain/Old Dutch half runners are great on my palate, but are more finicky when it comes to growing than Contenders. State is a bit lower on the taste scale but more productive on average. When the Mountain hits it is very productive, but very susceptible to weather and climatic conditions. It if does not suit them, they sulk like a spoiled child.
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Nov 15, 2024 3:18 PM CST
Name: Sally
central Maryland (Zone 7b)
See you in the funny papers!
Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Procrastinator Charter ATP Member Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Houseplants
Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Region: Maryland Composter Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener
I would go with productive. Fresh beans 'homegrown' will seem better anyway.
Plant it and they will come.
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Nov 15, 2024 6:01 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
Thanks for the feedback on the half-runners, @farmerdill !!!!

@sallyg , production *is* important...the fresh beans *definitely* beat the canned stuff...every time!!! Thumbs up

Okay, I've mentioned that I haven't grown a lot of beans. The Jade beans seem to be producing pretty good, though germination was sporadic at best. I seem to be getting a mix of straight and curved beans. The curved beans seem to be somewhat of a hassle when processing them...getting a handful lined up together to cut the ends off adding time to the process. Confused With a (hopefully) large amount of beans to process this might be issue, though the jail kitchen does have inmate help...and the gardeners can help, too. Maybe not a real issue, but just wondering about a good "straight" bush bean that has good production...any suggestions?

So far, collards are looking better, cabbage is better, broccoli is alive Smiling , a packet of carrot seeds are planted, and an entire row of turnips planted. Now, we're getting some cool weather in....lows in the mid-40's. Gonna be some slow seed germination.

We had a nice 0.57" rain the day before yesterday. I went by the jail garden yesterday and noticed something in one quarter that didn't make me happy...nutgrass sprigging up. I've read that corn gluten meal will prevent seed germination of nutgrass but I figure you have to get the "nuts" out, too....or, will the CGM affect the "nuts"?

It's beginning to look like a garden. Still have three rows to work up, but they're well on their way! I seriously doubt we'll plant all three of those rows and I'm thinking of maybe some Austrian Winter Peas for a cover-crop...any thoughts on that?

Here's a photo took yesterday from the southeast corner. The scarecrows are some fall decorations that Gena had. The "backbone" of the scarecrows are made from a section of bamboo with the bottom end cut off to reveal a hollow section. A round-topped stake is driven in the ground and the bamboo's is slid down on the stake. The wind turns the scarecrows easily. Thumbs up I like the big eyes and I'm thinking of putting face on the opposite side. I dunno if the deer have encountered them or whether they will be effective but so far, so good....and the women like them. Thumbs up
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...and, at the opposite (NW) corner we see the vast stand of...nutgrass. Thumbs down
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Nov 15, 2024 6:18 PM CST
Name: Sally
central Maryland (Zone 7b)
See you in the funny papers!
Overwinters Tender Plants Indoors Garden Procrastinator Charter ATP Member Hummingbirder Frogs and Toads Houseplants
Keeper of Poultry Vegetable Grower Region: Maryland Composter Native Plants and Wildflowers Organic Gardener
Looks really good though! Maybe in spring you can pop in some marigolds.
Plant it and they will come.
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Nov 15, 2024 6:39 PM CST
Name: Rj
Just S of the twin cities of M (Zone 4b)
Forum moderator Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Plant Identifier Garden Ideas: Level 1
Ed, the corn gluten prevents germination, but do not think it would do anything to the "nuts"
As Yogi Berra said, “It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”
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Nov 15, 2024 6:48 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
Thanks, Sally. They've worked hard to get to this stage.

I'm hoping to come up with a fence charger solution before the deer decide the scarecrows are their friends. Rolling my eyes. Currently I'm having problems with my own *new* Parmak 12v fence charger, which is what I was thinking would be a good choice. I'm not sure now, though.<sigh>

I'm going ahead and ordering a few pieces of drip tape equipment. What-the-heck, I'll quit buying those snack size Baby Ruths for a couple of years to cover them! nodding I've got enough tape and header-pipe-to-drip-tape valves in the shed to get it up and running...just need some coupling fittings, filter setup, and some header pipe and BOOM!!!...it's up and running. The problem is that we're moving into winter and I usually pull the filter setup off and put it inside to prevent freezing. But, having the drip-tape in place before the collards and cabbage get very big would be good. Of course, we could just fly blind with the water this winter and set the drip up in the spring.

I'm finding that working this garden is rather interesting. Intensive labor once or twice a week...and then coasting, you might say. But, this is to get the garden laid out and planting some cold weather crops. Even being in a somewhat slow season I stopped by yesterday and spot treated some fire ants Grumbling that were moving into the most southern row and I'm going by tomorrow to spray some Bt. I think the women will need more work days/hours this summer when things are growing fast so they can handle things we take for granted. But, we'll cross that slippery log when we get to it! Thumbs up One lady has gotten trustee status and is on work-release now, so that lowered the workforce a tad...but happy for her!!!! Thumbs up

Ya know, this spring when me and my gardening buddy was burning off my garden, trying to get it productive again I never would have thought I'd be working on another one by year-end...and at the jail! Life has its twists and turns and we don't really know what tomorrow might bring. Smiling
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Nov 15, 2024 6:54 PM CST
Thread OP
Name: Ed
South Alabama (Zone 8b)
Garden Procrastinator Region: United States of America Region: Alabama Enjoys or suffers hot summers Tomato Heads Vegetable Grower
Solar Power Bee Lover Birds Seed Starter Butterflies Container Gardener
crawgarden said: Ed, the corn gluten prevents germination, but do not think it would do anything to the "nuts"

Thanks for confirming that. Looks like the ladies will be busy!!!! I pulled a couple of sprigs up, but only had the thickened base of the plant, not really a nut attached...probably broke off. We'll try loosening the soil a bit more and see if that helps. My gardening buddy is a nutgrass-pulling professional. If I could get him over to the jail he could show'em how to pull it....I think he's allergic to jails, though. Green Grin! Rolling my eyes.

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