Roses forum: Need help

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Name: Marti Nelson
96 Royal Lane Somerset, KY 4 (Zone 6b)
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marti
Oct 6, 2013 6:50 PM CST
Several of my roses have set rose hips and I thought I would give them a try to grow seedlings. I need suggestions on how to use the rose hips, what kind of potting soil, etc. Any suggestions?
Tahlmorra lujhala mei wiccan
(The fate of a man rests always within the hands of the gods)
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
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zuzu
Oct 6, 2013 6:53 PM CST

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Hi, Marti. Someone else will have had more experience with this, I'm sure, and will be able to give you some good advice. I've never grown roses from seeds, but I just wanted to say how nice it is to see you here again. It's been a while.
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Oct 6, 2013 7:07 PM CST

Moderator

In case no one else offers any advice, I found this article on the Web. It explains the process in simple terms, which I appreciate.

http://www.wikihow.com/Grow-Roses-from-Seed
Name: Debra
Garland, TX (NE Dallas suburb) (Zone 8a)
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lovemyhouse
Oct 6, 2013 7:11 PM CST
Thumbs up
If you don't ask, the answer is always 'no.'
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
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porkpal
Oct 6, 2013 8:09 PM CST
A concise description, but which end of a rose hip is its head?
Porkpal
Name: Zuzu
Northern California (Zone 9a)
Forum moderator Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Region: California Cat Lover Roses
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zuzu
Oct 6, 2013 8:25 PM CST

Moderator

The picture shows that she left a little piece of stem on them, so the head would be the other end, I suppose.
Name: Cindi
Wichita, Kansas (Zone 7a)
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CindiKS
Oct 6, 2013 8:41 PM CST
Marti,
Rose hips can be made into jam or jelly, and since you are removing the seeds, you've done half the work already!
This page has a good recipe:
http://www.simplyrecipes.com/recipes/rose_hip_jelly_and_jam/
Our first frost won't be for a few weeks. I'm looking forward to harvesting lots of rose hips this year, mainly because I got too busy to prune the roses, and they grew more hips than usual.
I've never had the patience to propagate roses by seed. It takes long enough by cuttings! Good luck with the seedlings!
I tip my hat to you.
Remember that children, marriages, and flower gardens reflect the kind of care they get.
H. Jackson Brown, Jr.

roseseek
Oct 6, 2013 9:46 PM CST
There are about as many methods of raising rose seeds as there are for propagating, pruning, planting, fertilizing, etc. Generally, you need to clean the seeds from the hips. Warning- the fibers inside the hips are as irritating as fiberglass. Do not get them on you or you will itch beyond belief. I always shower immediately after shelling seeds from rose hips.

A pairing knife or small scissors can easily be used to slice open the hips and pry out the seed. Some people wash them, even sterilize them with a variety of solutions. I've stopped cleaning them simply because in my hot, dry climate, it isn't necessary. Some people feel they require a period of cold "stratification". Some may, but not all do. I"ve had extremely heavy germination with, and without the cold period from the same basic types of seeds. If you're germinating species from colder climates, they may need more cold. If you're germinating HT, floribunda or OGR seeds from evergreen, warmer climate types, they may well not. Ralph Moore, the Father of the Modern Miniature Rose, felt seeds germinated without the cold probably were more evergreen and early flowering. His logic was in Nature, those were the seeds which were likely to be best suited for warmer, longer season climates. He found those which germinated the second year from sewing tended to be once flowering, as if they may be the more cold hardy, most suited for shorter growing seasons. Experiment to see what works best for the types you are attempting to raise and in your climate. My seed are shelled then put into small zip lock type baggies with labels to indicate the crosses, then placed in the fridge to hold them until the weather is conducive for germination.

I hate to keep using the word "generally", but most of this is "in general" because none of this is written in stone. No matter how religious you are about following someone's "rules", Nature is going to thwart your best efforts every time. You can do everything precisely as instructed and one year they'll germinate like grass. The next, they won't. Then, you can just haphazardly shove them in dirt and they come up like grass again. There are so many variables in moisture, temperature, condition of the plants producing the seed, etc., which can help influence success. You can't control them all. In general, most rose seeds slow their germination when temps hit the seventy degree mark. As it gets hotter, they literally come to a halt. Here, that means they probably aren't going to germinate before after Thanksgiving anyway, so I don't plant them until Thanksgiving-ish. I say "ish" because I wait until it begins to cool to that range and (hopefully!) there are chances of rain. Seeds KNOW the difference between rain and hose water. Some will poke their heads up with the hose water, but they explode when it starts to rain.

The seeds are pretty much mature enough to germinate after about 120 days from pollination. I time my last pollination so I can have them all harvested, shelled and in the fridge by October 1, to hold them for two months (approximately), providing them a cold period (just in case) and because I have found here, if I push leaving ripening hips on the bushes past October-ish, the chances of them being eaten by the rodents (squirrels, mice, rats, etc.) which wander through here from the chaparral are MUCH greater.

There are many opinions about what the "perfect" germination media is. But, think about it. Rose seeds have germinated in a wide variety of soils around the world for millennia without any Human intervention. They come up in the junk dirt in my back yard all by themselves. Basically (how's that for a replacement for 'generally'?) you want a soil which remains light enough for the small seedlings to push through it easily; for roots to expand through it easily; which remains moist without water logging. There are seed starter mixes which can work very well, if you can keep them watered appropriately. It's difficult here due to the unusually high, arid heat spikes we have been receiving during our winter "rainy season." I just use the moisture control potting soil I use for everything else and it works just fine for most of them. You only want to cover the seeds between an eighth to a quarter of an inch with soil. You want them covered so they don't scald in case the sun is too brilliant and hot and to prevent the birds from eating them. I made "lids" for my tables out of 1" X 2" lumber with metal hardware cloth stapled to it so air, light and water freely enter, but rodents and birds can't. Once they begin pushing through the screens, I remove them and let them continue growing until it begins raining and I can safely transplant them from the tables into pots, then reuse the tables for this year's seeds.

These are my two seed tables. I think you can see they appear to germinate pretty well.


Thumb of 2013-10-07/roseseek/4b8533


Thumb of 2013-10-07/roseseek/23009e

Name: Marti Nelson
96 Royal Lane Somerset, KY 4 (Zone 6b)
Peace and long life
Charter ATP Member Region: California I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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marti
Oct 8, 2013 3:44 AM CST
Thanks everyone fo rthe information.
I have a rose hips from
1. Old Blush
2. Summer Snow
3. Veilenchu (spelled something like that)
4. Debutante

I also have lots of hips on my Poeme, Thalia, Robin Hood and anothr rose that is NOID. These hips are small so not sure if I want to mess with them.
Tahlmorra lujhala mei wiccan
(The fate of a man rests always within the hands of the gods)
Name: Lyn
Weaverville, California (Zone 8a)
Garden Ideas: Level 1 Garden Sages Celebrating Gardening: 2015
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RoseBlush1
Oct 8, 2013 11:03 AM CST
You don't have to do them all. You can learn a lot by working with just a few of the roses.

The hips you have harvested are most likely to be selfs ... meaning the pollen probably came from the same plant rather than another rose.

I checked the descendents lists for the roses above.

No info on 'Old Blush' because parentage is unknown.

'Summer Snow' has 86 known descendents, but it is a sport of 'Summer Snow, Cl' which has 88 known descendents. 'Summer Snow, Cl' is a seedling of 'Tausendschön' which has 313 know descendents and is a seedling of 'Crimson Rambler' with 11,828 known descendents.

'Veilchenblau' has 201 known descendents.

'Debutante'. the floribunda by Warriner has no descendents, but Débutante by Walsh has 2 known descendents ... I'd probably pass on this one.

Poëma -- no descendents.... another pass

Thalia -- 6 descendents ... maybe another pass

'Robin Hood -- 10,766 descendents.

Go ahead and do a small experiment and see what you get.

Roseseek (Kim Rupert) is a rose breeder and processes more seeds than any of us who just want to experiment would ever think of processing.

He has listed some of his more interesting crosses on HMF. Several of his roses are in commerce and several more are being tested for introduction.

The list of crosses he made this year is mind-boggling. But don't let that intimidate you. He started out exactly the same way you are thinking of starting out and it became his passion.

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=7.6893&tab=21&qn...

A lot of amateurs have introduced roses that have stood the test of time. They all started with "I wonder what I would get if I planted the seeds from these few hips I have collected". The thing is, they had fun playing with the "I wonder ...." Many have never introduced the roses that came from their experiments, but who knows what you will get ? Smiling

Smiles,
Lyn







I'd rather weed than dust ... the weeds stay gone longer.
Name: Suzanne/Sue
Sebastopol, CA (Zone 9a)
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Calif_Sue
Oct 8, 2013 12:37 PM CST

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@Betja, Betty had a successful stint in breeding miniatures and wrote an article about it. Thumbs up
http://garden.org/ideas/view/Betja/1174/My-Big-Adventure-in-...
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Name: Marti Nelson
96 Royal Lane Somerset, KY 4 (Zone 6b)
Peace and long life
Charter ATP Member Region: California I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database!
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marti
Oct 8, 2013 3:06 PM CST
Thanks all. The information is going to help me.
Tahlmorra lujhala mei wiccan
(The fate of a man rests always within the hands of the gods)

roseseek
Oct 10, 2013 2:33 AM CST
Betty created some beautiful roses. I grew (and loved) Winter Magic and Sequoia's brown sport, Cafe Ole and Autumn Magic. Her Church Mouse was the singularly most difficult rose to grow I have endeavored. I continue growing, loving and breeding with her Show'n' Tell.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5738.0
Name: Porkpal
Richmond, TX
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Keeper of Poultry Farmer Roses Raises cows
Garden Ideas: Level 2 Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Plant Identifier
porkpal
Oct 10, 2013 6:34 AM CST
I have become intrigued by the challenge of growing roses from seed. Where do you find out which roses are likely to have self-pollinated and which have many descendents and are, therefore, good gambles for a beginner?
Porkpal

roseseek
Oct 10, 2013 11:22 AM CST
The best reference for that information is a Premium Membership ($24 a year) to Help Me Find - Roses. One of the main benefits is the ability to research the parentage and descendants of any rose in the database for which information is known. Much effort has been spent to include all the official registration information from the American Rose Society and tremendous information is available in the References section on each rose page, gleaned from sources around the world, both historical as well as current.

You are probably aware that the seed parent (mother) is always listed first, followed by the pollen parent (father), so being able to look at the parentage for all the roses for which that information has been made public will show you which roses have proven themselves worthy seed parents. Not every rose is fertile in each role. Seeing how others have succeeded with them will quickly direct you in the best use for each. Of course, that isn't infallible as there are many factors which figure in to the plant's ability to perform the function, but if it has many offspring listed as on parent, and not the other, chances are it's probably best used as that parent. Which can save you much time and frustration.

Also, there are always the possibilities that the stated parentage is in error. Just because you applied pollen from a different rose to the flower which resulted in the seed, it doesn't mean the seed resulted only from that pollen. Some roses self pollinate extremely quickly, while others have demonstrated nearly complete self sterility. At least this will give you the "best guess" as to what has succeeded.

The alternative would be to collect the various editions of Modern Roses by the ARS and look up the individual roses manually. I did that for MANY years before Help Me Find. Modern Roses doesn't show you quickly all the offspring and parents of the rose, nor is it efficient at permitting you to trace breeding lines quickly, things Help Me Find permits you to do with great speed and efficiency. Help Me Find also shows you many images of each rose in brilliant, living color, for which they have been submitted by site users.

One thing I would seriously suggest to anyone interested in beginning to raise seedling roses is to allow the plants in your garden to set their own seed, by themselves. Keep track of what seems willing "mothers" without your efforts, then sew seeds from each one to test how easily each one germinates. Some will set copious seed voluntarily, but few will germinate easily. Others will set as many seeds and virtually every one sprouts. You will likely find others which fall anywhere between the two. Determining what you already grow, which performs well for you in your climate, conditions and with your culture style, and which sets a good percentage of viable seed, will give you a good direction in which to begin. Climate can make or break a seed parent. Iceberg has been used to great effect by breeders around the world, but it refuses to set seed in hot, arid climates. Plant it in a cooler, moister type and it sets hips from seemingly every flower. It won't do you much good to deliberately collect a rose to work with when it demonstrates it won't perform that way where you are.

Raising self set seed from your garden also permits you to practice planting and germinating rose seeds with pretty much disposable seeds. They have germinated all by themselves around the world for centuries, but deliberate planting to maximize your success rate can take some experimenting to see what the most effective methods for you to employ are. Why waste time and energy creating seeds until you are practiced at raising them? Self set seeds will show you which roses are willing to be and good at playing "mom", and provide you a wealth of them to practice and experiment with. It can also show you which of your plants may not make decent "babies." Many will germinate and some just won't be decent plants for various reasons. It is significantly easier to throw a seedling away if it proves it isn't worth growing if you aren't as vested in it as you might be had you "created" it. You are going to quickly find the vast majority of seedlings won't be worth the real estate and water they require, but that really only increases the fun of raising them. It is surprising and exciting when the right one comes up!

I would seriously start with the Premium Membership to Help Me Find - Roses for your research source. Begin noticing which roses already in your garden perform well and are willing seed parents, then begin sewing those seeds to see which germinate easily and which methods of planting work most efficiently for you where you are. Once you have those steps well under way, you're pretty much ready to start generating seeds of your own. If you are an ARS member, Linda Schuppener has provided a brief and very useful article, complete with decent "how to" photos in the latest ARS annual. It is aptly titled, "Creating a Brand New Rose." Linda is a participant on the Rose Hybridizers Association Forum, another good source of information you might enjoy. Reading back threads and lurking on the site a while will give you a lot of information and feeling for what is being tried around the world; what has worked and what hasn't.

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