Daylilies forum: Foliage Discussion

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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 14, 2013 2:52 PM CST
A question for daylily growers in climates with mild winters.
The photo below shows a daylily that was evergreen (it never had grown outside) [evergreen - foliage characteristic] and set a bud while keeping some of its older green leaves. It rested for a little while - it did not grow any new leaves for that while. So it was dormant [dormant - growth characteristic]. Then it started to grow again (burst or broke its bud). There are mature green leaves from the first round of growth then there are bud scales and green leaves from its second round of growth. So the leaf pattern is long leaves, short leaves (the bud scales - they never become normal length) and long leaves.

Thumb of 2013-12-14/admmad/fa246d

When a semi-evergreen grows a fan with a few short leaves during the winter and then stops growing until the spring, after it starts to grow again in the spring (now the question)
is the leaf length pattern normal - or is it long leaves, short leaves (bud scales) and then long leaves or do some daylilies show one pattern and some show the other pattern?
Maurice
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Dec 14, 2013 7:46 PM CST
Maurice, If I am understanding what you are asking....does the short leaves grow to normal length? If this is what you are asking then I would have to say yes in my experience all the short leaves eventually grow to normal length in the spring or when we have prolonged warm spells. I have never seen one that stays long, short, then long.

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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Dec 14, 2013 7:55 PM CST
These photos are of registered dormants from Ohio but as you can see they have not gone dormant here, they are acting more like semi-evergreens

Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/ada3c7 Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/dcaa93

This is a semi-evergreen and I think if it got cold and stayed cold it would actually go under and be dormant

Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/c5c6db

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Dec 14, 2013 8:06 PM CST
Arlene - To have a daylily that long without producing additional fans would be disappointing to me too. I find that the true dormants don't like my southern garden either.

Maurice - You are a serious wealth of information! THANKS for all the detailed information about dormancy! I'm getting quite an education here!

In regard to your question about leaf/blade length... All of mine seem to grow long leaves/blades. A small few might have that shorter first, then longer leaf pattern, but most of mine don't. I am in zone 9b. And I do lose some every year that must be true dormants. They last about 2, maybe 3 years and then they disappear never to return.

Also ... Because I try to grow organically, I attempt to stay away from fungicides/pesticides/etc. Unfortunately, I get aphids, thrips, and rust. Fall is the worst time for all those daylily woes. I have several daylilies that seem to be rust buckets. They are like a magnet to rust fungus. They are all NOIDs, so I have no idea of the cultivars.

Well, today, I noticed one that looked pretty bad due to rust and aphids. I removed most of the leaves/blades from it. Right next to it is a much larger daylily and not a speck of rust on it. I am wondering if older, more established daylilies are more rust resistant or are some cultivars just less prone to rust attacks? I say that because most of my larger plants don't seem to be bothered much by rust. Maybe they are larger because they aren't stunted by rust fungus? I think most of mine are indeed prone to rust, but those few that rarely show any signs of rust and just keep growing green and beautiful always amaze me, especially when the rest of my daylilies are looking pretty ugly. And then all the pests and diseases/funguses subside and my daylilies look nice and healthy again with their new growth. The high humidity here in FL ... it is always short-lived to have perfect looking plants without treatment. I wondered, too, if a daylily was exposed enough times to rust, could it become immune to the fungus if it is an otherwise healthy plant? I don't believe I've ever lost a daylily to rust, but I do know when they are weak, they get attacked by everything!

If the rust issue is something not discussed on the threads, please treemail me with anything you are willing to share with me about rust fungus. I honestly don't know that much about it and how it affects daylilies in the long term.
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Dec 14, 2013 8:09 PM CST
Michele - We cross posted. I just saw your new photos and I have never seen a daylily in my yard with growth like that! I must have all evergreens or semi-evergreen plants. That is really interesting to me as I've never encountered that ... at least not that I was aware of. So that might be what a dormant's growth would look like if I had any in my garden .... very interesting! Thanks for sharing those photos! Thumbs up

Added to this post ....

Michele - I see a lot of brown blades. Do all your daylilies do that during this time of year or do just the dormants do that?
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 14, 2013 8:23 PM CST
Thumb of 2013-12-15/admmad/df3d91

In the photo right now Leaf 1 is long, leaf 3 is shorter than leaf 1, and leaf 5 is longer than leaf 3. When the fan grows more, will leaf 3 become longer than leaf 1? Will it become almost as long as leaf 1 or will it always be short (although perhaps longer than it is now)?
Maurice
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 14, 2013 9:14 PM CST
Thumb of 2013-12-15/admmad/e389cc

Above is a photo of normal fan growth.

Leaf 11 is longer than leaf 9 which is longer than leaf 7 which is longer than leaf 5 which is longer than leaf 3 which is longer than leaf 1.

Leaf 10 is longer than leaf 8 which is longer than leaf 6 which is longer than leaf 4 which is longer than leaf 2.

Leaf 12 is the youngest leaf and it is still growing. It will become longer than leaf 10.

Much later from now some of the leaves may have caught up with each other when they are all adult mature length so leaf 10 and leaf 12 may both be the same length. Leaf 11 and leaf 9 might both manage to grow to be the same length. But many of these leaves have stopped growing and will never grow any longer.

This fan has not interrupted its growth. It has not made/set a bud after it started growing its new leaves.

Maurice
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
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tink3472
Dec 14, 2013 9:16 PM CST
Leaf 1 and 2 will die off before leaf 3 grows long most likely. Leaf 3 will eventually grow to normal size and be the outermost leaf, it will not remain short. If leaf 1stayed there then leaf 3 would grow and be just as long or almost as long as leaf 1. I've never check the foliage to see if the first leaves are longer than the next set or not.

Edited to add

I just read the second post and that's interesting. I cannot say that I have seen that kind of growth, what I see is eventually all the leaves are pretty much the same length without the shorter outer leaves like yours that don't grow.
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Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Dec 14, 2013 9:35 PM CST
beckygardener said:Michele -

Michele - I see a lot of brown blades. Do all your daylilies do that during this time of year or do just the dormants do that?


It's just the dormants and the semi- evergreens that turn brown in the winters. The semi-evergreens usually just look ratty with the tips brown. The evergreens will have a little brown but it's just the outer leaves dying. When those that are in the photo got their first cold spell a lot of the leaves turned yellow, what you see now is nothing compared to how they did look. If we get another freeze then the green in those will most likely turn yellow and then brown if they are truly dormant. I will take a photo Monday of a couple more dormants that are really brown with not much green at all. It started raining today so I didn't get more photos.

Here's a photo of the back area and you can see most everything is green. These photos were taken with my phone so they may not be as sharp as I'd like when enlarged since I don't lug my camera back and forth to the gardens this time of year


Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/5eaacd
Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/c55d48

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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Dec 14, 2013 9:55 PM CST
Michele - Thank you for that information. I think I am now understanding the differences between ev, sev, and dor. I have had some dormants for sure, because I do remember some of mine a few years ago turning completely yellow, then brown, so I thought they had died. It was during one of the unusually cold winters and I thought the freezing temps is what killed them. But I do believe they made a return appearance for at least the following year. So that is what a hard dormant does! But does it only do that if the temps dip? Or do they eventually die back regardless of temps in winter?

Most all of my current remaining in-ground daylilies are crossed with each other. So if I had any dormants, they were weeded out by nature a few years ago. And those left that I crossed with each other were crossed using the remaining sev or ev daylilies. Perhaps that is why it now appears I no longer have any dormant daylilies. Natural selection.

Your daylily beds are amazing!!!! Oh my goodness gracious! That must be a real treat to get up in the mornings during Spring to walk along all those beds and check out all the blooms! I could spend the whole day just examining new blooms! I know it must be a tremendous amount of work ... but definitely a labor of love!

How many beds do you dedicate to your own crosses?

What size are those pots? I am impressed!!!!

Honestly, I don't know how you do it all! You grow them (which is no small feat), you sell them which means dividing, packing, and shipping them, as well as communicating with clients/customers. You move them around or amend the beds (which is a LOT of work)! And you have to keep track of all of them, of what gets shipped during the growing season, and all the while keeping them all healthy with treatments and fertilizing and watering and weeding! Sheesh!

Plus you have to take care of yourself and your own household. That saying, "A woman's work is never done!" There must be a photo of you next to that saying in the books! Thumbs up
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Name: Ed Burton
East Central Wisconsin (Zone 5a)
Hybridizing, Lily Auction seed sell
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EdBurton
Dec 14, 2013 11:23 PM CST
I going to chime in here a bit.
NE Wisconsin
In the fall starting mid late October the semi evergreen, and full dormants start to die back.
The hard dormants will die back completely to the ground and stay that way until the snow melts of late March early April.
The S/E never completely die back all the way, showing some green even when frozen solid.
When they are buried under a foot of snow or more I don't know what is happening, but in years with little or no snow cover they will start growing anytime the weather warms above freezing for a few days, then a hard freeze will kill off new growth. I consider this wasted energy for the plant, and have started covering plants with shredded leaves wherever I can to minimize ground thaw and prevent this wasted energy loss.

Evergreens stay green right up to a hard freeze, and they attempt to grow at every opportunity.
They also look the worst come real spring and take the longest to recover.
I don't buy southern plants anymore unless I know someone else in a northern climate has had success with them first.
I found out the hard way that for some reason some evergreens do rather well up here, while others were given a death sentence as soon as I put them in the ground.
This also happen with a few of the S/E but not very often.

By mid late April my plants are starting to grow gangbusters, shrugging off overnight freezing temps with no problems, the S/E's look the best at this time as they started growing with the melting snows, the hard dormants all have short stub fans that will catch up in a few weeks, the evergreens look like a mess at this time with a few shoots poking out here and there, by June they will look as good as the others.

If I could, I would plant new arrivals late April because it's the start of our rainy season, but it's also the reason most can't be dug for shipping.
I start planting seedlings around the end of May, we are a week or so past last average frost date, and it's safe to plant tomatoes.
Ed Burton

seed seller "gramps"
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Dec 14, 2013 11:36 PM CST
beckygardener said:
How many beds do you dedicate to your own crosses?

Let me show you all the various beds first

front yard area. There are 9 beds total plus the fence line both sides, this is mainly the seedling area. This is where James Hall puts all his keeper/to evaluate seedlings at. I have one bed here for seedlings.

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This is my seedling bed in the front area above

not planted yet
Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/9ca4c8

partially planted with 1 1/2 yr old seedlings
Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/170e04

these next photos are the brand new baby seedlings, the 4 beds are James Hall's seedlings

March 2012
Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/8b3bc4

different view March 2013 with the pots done instead of planting in bed like above
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This is the fence line by the above beds....these are my seedlings
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This is back area that I showed in earlier post. There are 9 rows of beds back here, some are all the way down and some have a break in between for a walkway. I have about 120' of one, 90' of 2 and then 30-35" of the other 6. These are for sales pots, new collections, and hybridizing.
Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/e9d914

This is the back end of the back area where most of mine are at
Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/52485f

At the end of these I added a 9'x60' bed just for seedlings. Most of these are the ones I didn't see bloom this past season so I kept the better crosses I wanted to see and planted them; you will notice I just buried the pots in the soil. I did this because I figured since they were already in pots I would just leave them and it would make it easier to just yank them out if I wasn't planning on keeping them or it may be better just to pull the ones out that I plan to keep to begin with. Anyway, I beat the sides of the pots some to loosen the soil and I top dressed with fertilizer, alfalfa, etc and stuck in a hole that I had added fertilizer and alfalfa to. I say I will just yank the pots out but the roots will be 1-2 feet out of the bottom of the pots and it will be hard to just yank them out Blinking . The ones that were bursting out of the pots (I had to cut the pots off of them) I went ahead and planted in the ground. And at the other end of this bed I planted in the ground some of the "we will watch another year" seedlings. These are not all of the seedlings, these are just Kim's I have another 300 of mine I have to figure out where to put.
Thumb of 2013-12-15/tink3472/254f25



You ask
What size are those pots? I am impressed!!!!

The pots in the photo you ask about are 1 gallon and 2 gallon pots. The bigger ones on the outside of the beds are 5 gallon. These are only in there a short time, from fall until spring, so the smaller pots don't bother them until they get shipped out.



Honestly, I don't know how you do it all! You grow them (which is no small feat), you sell them which means dividing, packing, and shipping them, as well as communicating with clients/customers. You move them around or amend the beds (which is a LOT of work)! And you have to keep track of all of them, of what gets shipped during the growing season, and all the while keeping them all healthy with treatments and fertilizing and watering and weeding! Sheesh!

Plus you have to take care of yourself and your own household. That saying, "A woman's work is never done!" There must be a photo of you next to that saying in the books! Thumbs up


I don't do it alone, I have my best friend and gardening partner Kim helping. Plus a lot of these are James Hall's so he does his with our help. This is actually the first year we have had this many to take care of. I have slowly been adding more collections so there is more come dividing time and then of course more sales pots. I actually have cut back on the ones I have in the hybridizing area so it will be less work in that area next year. We pretty much have a routine down so it is not too overwhelming when it comes to doing it all, just long days sometimes.
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Name: Tina
Where the desert meets the sea (Zone 9b)
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chalyse
Dec 15, 2013 12:27 AM CST
Thanks so much for this visual description of paradormancy. I'd noticed this difference in my daylilies this summer and was wondering what I was seeing. So, do I understand it right that this bud dormancy (paradormancy) is the crux of what we mean when we say a cultivar is dormant, semi, or evergreen? Or, are you exploring the idea that those three descriptors are not really capturing all the variations that could be given to each cultivar (it would be neat if there were more levels to how a cultivar is described, so that growers could know how the plant will perform), and that it might also be possible to add hard-freeze and drought/high temp performance as standard info on cultivars as well?

From Maurice, above: "When it is dormant the fan will look something like this \\\\\\S////// with the scape (S) in the centre and the old leaves / and \ on either side of the scape. When the bud is not dormant and starts to grow right away the fan will look something like this \\\\\\\///S/////. The new bud could be dormant for a bit of time and then start growing new leaves. If the old leaves start to die while the bud is still dormant and if they all die then the plant may be summer dormant. In those cases, usually the bud starts to grow new leaves after all the old leaves have died. The mature leaves and possibly the scape can be what keeps the bud dormant. That type of dormancy is called paradormancy."
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 15, 2013 1:53 AM CST
chalyse said: So, do I understand it right that this bud dormancy (paradormancy) is the crux of what we mean when we say a cultivar is dormant, semi, or evergreen? Or, are you exploring the idea that those three descriptors are not really capturing all the variations that could be given to each cultivar (it would be neat if there were more levels to how a cultivar is described, so that growers could know how the plant will perform), and that it might also be possible to add hard-freeze and drought/high temp performance as standard info on cultivars as well?"


The three descriptors dormant/evergreen/semi-evergreen are not capturing all the variations that could be used to describe each cultivar - the biological information. There is more to it.
Dormant means the plant part is not growing. If one wanted to describe a plant as dormant then a plant that was not dormant would be described as non-dormant or possibly evergrowing but it would not be correctly described as evergreen (or semi-evergreen). Dormant applies to growth or not growing.

Evergreen is a description of the leaves. It tends to mean that the plant keeps its leaves in cold winters. If a plant is described as evergreen then a plant that is not evergreen would be described as decidous not as dormant. Deciduous is a description of the leaves. It means the plant loses its leaves in cold winters.

But neither evergreen nor deciduous really describes daylily leaves well. Daylilies do not have real evergreen leaves because evergreen leaves should last more than one year and daylilies do not drop their leaves the way a deciduous tree does. More correct terms for daylily leaves would be winter-green meaning that the leaves survive one winter or summer-green meaning that the leaves survive for only one growing season.

None of these terms, dormant versus evergrowing for the growth characteristic or winter-green versus summer-green for the foliage characteristic is related to cold hardiness.

Within the category dormant a daylily could be winter dormant or summer dormant or both (or they might be the same thing - we do not know). Within the winter dormant category a daylily could be endodormant or ecodormant. A daylily that was summer dormant could be ecodormant, endodormant or paradormant.

All the complications/categories above would describe the biology of daylilies.

The categories dormant/evergreen/semi-evergreen are registration categories - they do not relate well to the biology of the daylily - the biology is far more complicated.

Daylilies can be paradormant (during the summer). They can be winter ecodormant. They can be summer ecodormant. The same daylily cultivar that is summer paradormant one year could be summer ecodormant in another year or not summer dormant at all in another year.

I am trying to find out if any daylilies are winter endodormant. So far it seems that if there are any endodormant daylilies there are not very many at all left in the modern cultivars.
Maurice
Name: Michele
Cantonment, FL zone 8b
Seller of Garden Stuff Region: United States of America Pollen collector Dragonflies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Florida
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tink3472
Dec 15, 2013 6:42 AM CST
beckygardener said:

If the rust issue is something not discussed on the threads, please treemail me with anything you are willing to share with me about rust fungus. I honestly don't know that much about it and how it affects daylilies in the long term.


Yes we discuss rust here quite often, you may want to start a new thread for it though. There are several threads were we have discussed it but I find none in the search labeled "rust" so it must be in the opening post or in the discussion.
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Name: Fred Manning
Lillian Alabama

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spunky1
Dec 15, 2013 7:00 AM CST
Thanks everyone for adding to this topic.
I think the latest questions have been answered, but now I have a question for Arlene. You said!
Michele, you have given me a hint to determine dormancy in my garden. I whipped out there and took a look. Nobody without a lead. That's good news for me. I have seen them without leads and wondered what that meant. I do think SYMPHONY OF PRAISE has an undetermined amount of dormancy in her. Last year I saw her without a lead.

I have never heard the word "lead" used with daylilies, what does it refer to.
Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Dec 15, 2013 7:13 AM CST
Michele - Thank you! I found an old thread about rust and have bumped it up to ask questions:
The thread "I think I have rust." in Daylilies forum

I really enjoyed your explanation of the nursery and how you grow your plants! I have a whole new respect for growers and hybridizers in the business! Daylilies are in a class all their own, IMHO!

Fred - Thank you for asking Arlene about what she means by "lead". I was wondering the same thing.

Maurice - Wow! The evergrowing or dormancy of daylilies is far more complicated than I ever knew! Thank you for sharing all that information. What is the species of daylily that you are most interested in finding? Is it extinct now?
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Name: Becky
Sebastian, Florida (Zone 10a)
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beckygardener
Dec 15, 2013 7:25 AM CST
Ed - You have the exact opposite issue I have! I can appreciate your dilemma.

Out of curiosity ... do most buyers want ev, sev, or dor plants? In other words ... where are most buyers from ... the north or south?

I am wondering if root-knot nematodes are the main reason why there aren't as many daylily growers in southern Florida.
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Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 15, 2013 9:44 AM CST
beckygardener said:What is the species of daylily that you are most interested in finding? Is it extinct now?


Stout indicated this about the abnormal second round of growth of some of the daylilies in the greenhouse:

"In the resumption of growth during late winter after a period of dormancy, for seedlings growing in a greenhouse, the leaves may become upright and normal or they may become short, usually dark green in color, and rather spreading to form a low flattened fan (repressed growth) ... which is noticeably different from the growth of the first period. The buds usually become dormant or nearly so."

These are the species or hybrids that had any repressed growth:

"Seedlings of certain species (especially H. exaltata, H. Middendorffii, H. Dumortierii, and a wild type now believed to be H. esculenta) very generally have the repressed habit for the second period of their growth when kept in a greenhouse during the entire winter. But if seedlings which have this habit are placed in a refrigerator after they have become fully dormant and left in a temperature slightly above freezing for 30 days the new growth which they then make in the greenhouse is normal. Also the resumed growth is normal if the dormant seedlings are placed in a cold frame during late winter (about March 1st). But with the advance of spring during May and early June, seedlings which have been in the condition of repressed growth and have remained in the greenhouse may change to normal growth... But various groups of seedlings with repressed growth remained in this condition and some died during the summer while others grew feebly and only made good normal growth after a winter in a cold frame."

and

"Plants of H. middendorffii were dormant for a time and the new growth which they made in late May, in the greenhouse, was noticeably repressed."

H. middendorffii and H. dumortierii are still available and I have a source for them. I'm not sure about H. exaltata or H. esculenta. All are probably still growing in their native regions in Asia but they may not be available in the U.S. or Canada. I will be getting (hopefully) middendorffii and dumortierii next summer.
Maurice
Name: Maurice
Grey County, Ontario (Zone 4b)
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admmad
Dec 15, 2013 10:56 AM CST
tink3472 said:Edited to add

I just read the second post and that's interesting. I cannot say that I have seen that kind of growth, what I see is eventually all the leaves are pretty much the same length without the shorter outer leaves like yours that don't grow.


The first few leaves that grow out from a daylily bud are not normal leaves. They are modified leaves and considered to be bud scales. There are usually only a few of them, perhaps two or three and sometimes they do not grow very much above the soil surface. They also yellow, dry up and disappear quite quickly. They are not very noticeable unless one looks very early in the spring as the buds sprout and the leaves start to grow longer and one keeps checking weekly on the length of the same leaves.

As far as I know all daylily buds on all cultivars show the pattern of the first few leaves (the bud scales) not growing to the normal mature adult leaf length. All the daylilies that I have examined that were apparently sprouting from buds have had bud scales (first few outer modified leaves) that did not become normal length.

Stout wrote this:

"It is to be noted that a reduced development, especially in the length of the leaves, is the rule for the very first leaves that appear above ground from any bud, be it the first shoot of a seedling or of a new lateral branch or a bud that resumes growth in an old fan; These first leaves have somewhat the character of bud-scales."

A daylily that is not sprouting from a bud will not show the reduced length leaves because it does not have bud scales. Daylilies that are ecodormant (for example because they stopped growing [producing new leaves] because it is too cold) can start growing again and will not necessarily have bud scales if they did not have enough time to make a new bud. That could happen if the cold arrived suddenly not gradually. It is assumed that winter endodormant daylilies make a bud.

My question about the length of the leaves is to try to determine if the daylilies [that stopped growing with leaves only a few inches above the soil and that do not start growing again until late February or early March] are making a new bud (show evidence of having bud scales) or if they are just simply stopping and not starting growth again until late February or early March ).

I'm not sure what to think now.

Maurice

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