Lilies forum: A few hybridizing/seed questions?

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Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Dec 23, 2013 6:35 PM CST
I was under the impression that interspecific crosses (oriental x trumpet, oriental x Asiatic, trumpet x Asiatic, etc.) can not be grown (mostly) by sowing the seed directly and that embryo rescue would be needed to grow plants to bulblet size. That said, can you cross orienpet x orienpet and grow the seed by just by standard planting or by embryo rescue only? Also is it possible for an amateur to do any interspecific crosses or is that just for guys with labs and degrees in botany? Sorry for all the questions.....

Name: Connie
Willamette Valley OR (Zone 8a)
Forum moderator Hybridizer Region: Pacific Northwest Lilies Sempervivums Sedums
Pollen collector I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Charter ATP Member Garden Ideas: Master Level Plant Identifier
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pardalinum
Dec 23, 2013 7:50 PM CST

Moderator

You are correct on your first comment. On the other two questions, it depends. In my experience I have better luck if both parents are tetraploid. Since we don't always know the chromosome count of our lilies we just have to experiment. Keep good records of your results. I have best success with tetraploid orienpet x tetraploid trumpet. For example, I get good seed from orienpet American West x tetraploid trumpet. Orienpet lily 'Ortega' is also fertile.
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
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gwhizz
Dec 24, 2013 3:23 AM CST
Never say Never .. I can put in 30 seeds, for 1 seedling or 90 seeds for no seedling.. If you followed elders advice and never experimented, where would we be? Confused
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Dec 27, 2013 8:36 PM CST
Hi Joe: Nothing wrong with experimenting. That's how Brian Bergman got his Golden Eaglet. Lily genetics is awful complex now, especially with so many hybrids of tetraploid, triploid and diploid. The market place is so full of cultivars that are so mixed and so far removed from their original ancestry that it is nearly impossible to predict success or failure when selecting two parents for a cross. There are some old rules of what and what cannot be for successful pollenation and what can and cannot be done without embryo rescue. They're still valuable knowledge for background but I think their application is becoming less and less in favor toward the unpredictable because of all 'bridging' that has been done in the last twenty or thirty years. I think reproductive physiological differences now are a big hurdle for the backyard pollenator to initially overcome. Then if you get what appears to be good seed but it won't sprout successfully, the parents ancestry is still too distant and embryo rescue may be the only option. Consider, too, there are some cultivars that are mules and infertile both ways. Some may be fertile only one way. Some of these we know of but there's probably just as many or more we don't. So when I read these posts I see key words like 'it depends' and 'I have the best luck with' and 'never say never' I really understand the depth in meaning of them. So many variables and unknowns. Jan de Graaff authored two books and Edward A. McRae authored another more recent book that contain valuable information on lily cross breeding, but they are becoming outdated. Both de Graaff and McRae were associates at The Oregon Bulb Farm. Judith Freeman, present owner/operator of the The Lily Garden also was an associate with de Graaff and McRae at 'Oregon' and is perhaps the most highly regarded lily geneticist in North America. Dr. Robert Griesbach from Wisconsin is another. It's timely for another really good updated book on lilies to be written, hopefully by either one or the other or both. But until then, I'll just keep experimenting.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Dec 28, 2013 10:48 AM CST
Thanks for the replies guys. So I guess it basically comes down to a lot of trial and error. Hey well that's cool. I just always have these visions of grandeur with wide crosses but I feel like it could be a big waste of time. Any thought of having a little list of fertile OT's to help each other out?

Ex. Saltarello (fertile pod but not fertile pollen)
Silk Road (fertile pollen and infertile pod)

By the way I have no idea if either of these statements were true or not. Just example of how we could compile a list. If suggesting this stuff is out of bounds I apologize in advance. I'm just not sure of the "lily etiquette". I know some people are more than forthcoming with a lot of info and some are more guarded based on all the years and years of hard work they may have put in. I also realize that a potential problem would be assuming pollen or pod are infertile based on crosses involving another infertile partner.
Name: Øystein Hermansen
Østfold,Norway (Zone 5b)
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grapus
Dec 28, 2013 2:41 PM CST
Most of the OTs are fertile. Some OTs gives seeds only if they are pollinated with pollen from 10-20 different hybrids. I have been told that a OT grown from seeds might be more fertile than it's parents, and give many more seeds than it's grandparents. Silk Road gives 20-30 seeds in each pod if pollinated with OT pollen. If it's pollinated with pollen from 4n trumpets the pods may have 30-50 seeds in each pod.
For 4 years I have been trying to get seeds from my OT lilies. The first years I had only a few older hybrids. Got no seeds. This year a friend of mine send me pollen from some OT seedlings that he knew was fertile. Thanks to that pollen I got many seeds from many of my OT lilies. But next year I will not pollinate any of the older OT lilies I have. They just gives me disappointments.
Ille bra,se.
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
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gwhizz
Dec 28, 2013 3:02 PM CST
Oystein, good germination on 'Ilga x Cigianette' ..[ if you have parent pics] ?
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Øystein Hermansen
Østfold,Norway (Zone 5b)
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grapus
Dec 28, 2013 3:27 PM CST

Thumb of 2013-12-28/grapus/cc6f97

Ilga


Thumb of 2013-12-28/grapus/7c1d0b

Ciganiete.

The last picture is not my own, found it on Internet.
Ille bra,se.
Name: Øystein Hermansen
Østfold,Norway (Zone 5b)
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grapus
Dec 28, 2013 3:55 PM CST
Great to hear that the cross germinates well for you. I might sow some seeds from that cross too, could give some exiting seedlings. They are both bred by the Latvian breeder Andris Krumins.
Ille bra,se.
Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Dec 28, 2013 6:07 PM CST
Should look good!-All have come up to hairpin stage under 4 weeks.
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Dec 29, 2013 12:19 AM CST
Ot stein, I hate to ask but what is a 4n trumpet?
Name: Øystein Hermansen
Østfold,Norway (Zone 5b)
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grapus
Dec 29, 2013 1:42 AM CST
A 4n trumpet is a tetraploid trumpet. Most lilies are 2n, diploid. A 4n trumpet are fertile with OTs.

(My name is Øystein, or Oystein as they say in most countries)
Ille bra,se.
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Dec 29, 2013 7:32 AM CST
Sorry Oystein, I replied from my phone and it must have auto corrected it by accident, as I would not have called you 'Ot Stein'. I'm familiar with the terms tetraploid and diploid but had never seen the term expressed that way. I got confused with describing a seedling as n1, n2 etc. Let's just say I'm learning a lot in these past few week and I'm grateful that you all are so patient.
Name: Øystein Hermansen
Østfold,Norway (Zone 5b)
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grapus
Dec 29, 2013 7:53 AM CST
Without good and patient friends my knowledge about lilies would have been poor. I have been lucky to meet skilled and experienced lily growers who have shared knowledge, pollen, seeds and bulbs with me. Thanks to them all I'm now able to do exiting crosses and grow great seedlings in my garden. Most of the growers I have met have been really generous with me. I owe them so much.
Ille bra,se.
Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Dec 29, 2013 9:54 AM CST
Joe, learning all about lilies happens gradually over time. It's not something you learn overnight, especially if your a 'seeder' (that's what we call ourselves who cross pollenate and seed). I think your going to be a good curiousity driven 'seeder'. All the seeders I know of or ever met are very sharing by nature, both in knowledge and seed, pollen, bulblets, scales, etc. simply because they love the hobby. There are no trade secrets or secret recipes amongst lily hobbyists. I've been growing lilies for about 25 years and seeding a little more than 10 years. My primary area of interest is with Division VI, Trumpets and Aurelians. About half of what I learned, I learned by my own experiences and about half from other seeders. I'm still learning as I go along--I suspect I'll never know all I'd like to know--but that's the life of a curiousity driven seeder.

The most important factors to me for successful seeding are the ability to keep good records, the ability to make a decision without hesitation and stick to it, and being prepared for failures because even in failure, something is learned. And last, becoming intimately familiar with my lilies and my total surrounding limitations.

And don't be afraid to ask questions for fear of them sounding dumb. They're not dumb if you don't know and want to know! Very nice helpful 'regular participants' here. Thumbs up
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Dec 29, 2013 9:20 PM CST
Joebass said:I got confused with describing a seedling as n1, n2 etc.

I think you mean "n+1,n+2 etc."? http://garden.org/thread/view_post/530508/

A tutorial on "n" used in genetics:

"n" (or "1n") is one set of chromosomes. If you remember from biology, a human has two sets of chromosomes. One set comes from mom, the other from dad. Because our chromosomes are paired, we are a 2n organism (also known as a diploid). Realize though, that "n" is a complete set of chromosomes, even though we need two sets to make a human.

So a 2n organism has two sets of chromosomes, a 3n organism has three sets of chromosomes, a 4n organism has four sets of chromosomes, etc. Lilies in nature are diploid, but some organisms are naturally 4n or more.

The "n" designations only indicates how many chromosome sets there are, not how many chromosomes are in a set, nor how many total chromosomes are present.
To relay this information, an expanded notation is used. For example, 2n=24 means there are 24 total chromosomes in two sets.

So if you understand correctly, you should know the answers to these queries:

A certain lily is 4n=48.
1) How many sets of chromosomes are there?
2) How many chromosomes are there?
3) How many chromosomes are there in a complete set of chromosomes?
4) How many genes are there?

(Click in the box for the answers)
Thumb of 2013-12-30/Leftwood/d68514

Name: Anthony Gloriosoides[ sure!]
Rosetta,Tasmania,Australia (Zone 7b)
idont havemuch-but ihave everything
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Region: Australia Lilies Seed Starter Bulbs
Plant and/or Seed Trader Hellebores Birds Seller of Garden Stuff Garden Art Cat Lover
Image
gwhizz
Dec 30, 2013 4:16 AM CST
DANGER!!- Will Robinson!,. Blinking Rick is cruising.............Joe do you want any Harlequin seeds .. I do still have a few Grenadier seeds as well..all proven good germination?
lily freaks are not geeks!
Name: Joe
Long Island, NY (Zone 7a)
Lilies Region: New York Plant and/or Seed Trader Seed Starter Garden Ideas: Level 1
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Joebass
Dec 30, 2013 6:42 AM CST
Rick, I got the first three answers and I did a double take with #4. Then I thought, wait nothing was discussed about genes! Haha

So when a diploid bulb is converted to tetra it essentially has two identical sets of chromosomes from each original parent but the seedlings from such could be a whole different range of possibilities, right?

Anthony, I will surely take some seeds. Thank you for your generosity. Maybe you can shoot me a tree mail and we can exchange info.
Name: Rick R.
near Minneapolis, MN zone 4a
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Garden Sages The WITWIT Badge Garden Photography Region: Minnesota Plant Identifier
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Leftwood
Dec 30, 2013 6:38 PM CST
Joebass said:So when a diploid bulb is converted to tetra it essentially has two identical sets of chromosomes from each original parent

Yes, when a tetraploid conversion is successful, the make up of the original sets of chromosomes stay intact. they do not recombine in different fashions as they do with sexual reproduction.

Just in case other readers might get the wrong idea, one cannot physically change a lily bulb from diploid to tetraploid. The process changes a cell (or cells) from diploid to tetraploid, and that cell (or cells) continually divides to produce a new tetraploid bulb (or bulbs).


Joebass said: but the seedlings from such could be a whole different range of possibilities, right?

Yes, remembering that tetraploids are still normally self infertile and that said tetraploid would need to be crossed with a compatible mate, the greater number of chromosomes leads to many more possible combinations. I don't know if the relationship is necessarily logarithmic, though.



Name: Lorn (Roosterlorn)
S.E Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Lilies Seed Starter Pollen collector Bee Lover Region: Wisconsin
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Roosterlorn
Dec 31, 2013 8:43 AM CST
Rick, do know if 2n X 4n would yield all 3n offspring?, assuming I could find a diploid willing to cooperate with my crazy garden nonsense Rolling on the floor laughing Also, do you know if stomate size would be intermediate enough to use as a preliminary identification of a triploid? All this with lilies, of course.

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