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Jan 7, 2014 3:54 PM CST
Name: Marvin Davis
southeast Indiana (Zone 6a)
Birds Daylilies Hostas Hummingbirder Region: Indiana Irises
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant and/or Seed Trader Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Just doing some winter gardening here in frigid Indiana-rtica. Balmy 13 below zero.
Going thru some pics and charts of my recent crosses and remembered a project that I had let get to the back burner. Anyway. Reaching out to the iris specialist out there. Wondering if anyone knows or has access to a seriously dark plicata or dark with plicata background that I might use to further my progress on the seedling pictured here. I know from experience it will produce plicatas. But I need something from a different angle. Everything it seems comes from the blue or purple side and then the seedlings seem to take on that shade more than what I really want. I know about 'Epicenter' and used it with 'Starlit Velvet' to get my 'Old Renegade', but I still want darker. Never happy LOL. You know. I want a plic with super black edges, a glistening white center fall, and a bright red beard. Then perfect ruffles and lots of buds. Yes there is still work to be done. Though I do like the beard color on this one, imagine if it were bright red. I think it has the form and fashion (I like the overlapping hafts) to be a good parent if I can get the right pollen for it. Someone out there knows just what I need. Blinking
Thumb of 2014-01-07/diggit/21cf9d
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Jan 7, 2014 4:17 PM CST
Name: Greg Hodgkinson
Hanover PA (Zone 6b)
Garden Photography Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Region: Japan Region: Pennsylvania
How about these two from Sterling Innerst:

Colortart

Colorwatch
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Jan 7, 2014 4:38 PM CST
Name: Marvin Davis
southeast Indiana (Zone 6a)
Birds Daylilies Hostas Hummingbirder Region: Indiana Irises
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant and/or Seed Trader Celebrating Gardening: 2015
thanks Greg, I may be wishing for something that is not out there yet. I mentally picture the ideal of course but I guess I can't assume that the ideal has even been done. After all, that is what I , myself, am trying to accomplish isn't it? Color Tart looks like it could help, possibly, but I need something darker if it is out there. I would settle for creating a very dark plicata for starters and then try for the red beard after that. LOL It seems everyone is on the lavender and pink combos right now and I do love those, but not much is going in in the plics right now. thanks again
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Jan 7, 2014 4:56 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Forum moderator Irises Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level
You might try Secret Recipe



or Wedding Night from Joe Ghio


Secret Recipe is a luminata, but luminatas are essentially just plicatas with the colors reversed so it should be OK.

Paul Black mentioned in his catalog that Circle of Light is good for breeding dark plicatas. I've never been able to get anything from it, but haven't tried all that hard either.



Or, speaking of Paul Black, maybe you can talk him into introducing this seedling:

Thumb of 2014-01-07/KentPfeiffer/2a5d97

or Keith Keppel into introducing this luminata:
Thumb of 2014-01-07/KentPfeiffer/dde2c2 Whistling

They both looked very nearly black from a distance.
Avatar for Frillylily
Jan 7, 2014 5:45 PM CST
Missouri (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
I have midnight oil and I must say that it is the blackest one I have seen to date. I don't know if it will work for what you want, don't know anything about hybridizing!
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Jan 7, 2014 5:51 PM CST
Name: Tom
Southern Wisconsin (Zone 5b)
Butterflies Vegetable Grower Keeper of Poultry Irises Keeps Horses Dog Lover
Daylilies Cat Lover Region: Wisconsin Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Isn't Keppel's Oreo a nearly black plicata? I got it last summer, so might be able to see it this spring. I like your seedling a lot!
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities,"
Avatar for Frillylily
Jan 7, 2014 5:58 PM CST
Missouri (Zone 6a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Identifier
Fiery Temper is dark and has a bright orangish/red colored beard if I remember right.
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Jan 7, 2014 6:26 PM CST
Name: Greg Hodgkinson
Hanover PA (Zone 6b)
Garden Photography Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Irises Region: Japan Region: Pennsylvania
How about your own "Old Renegade". As to Kent's suggestion about Paul Black's seedling. If he does not introduce it, he may be willing to send you some of it. Just email him and ask.

He came to talk to our group in region 3 awhile ago; and told everyone in attendance to email questions. I thought, no way, he is too busy. I took a chance and he immediately sent an email back (like two days or so). I think he would be very interested in helping if he did not see a future with the seedling. Just a thought.
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Jan 7, 2014 6:43 PM CST
Name: Marvin Davis
southeast Indiana (Zone 6a)
Birds Daylilies Hostas Hummingbirder Region: Indiana Irises
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant and/or Seed Trader Celebrating Gardening: 2015
thanks kent, 'Circle of Light' looks like it has some of the background I need possibly. But I am hoping for one with less violet to work with. I may try it anyway because it has 'Thunder Spirit' as a parent. I think Mid America still has 'Circle of Light'. I will keep looking . thanks
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Jan 7, 2014 6:50 PM CST
Name: Marvin Davis
southeast Indiana (Zone 6a)
Birds Daylilies Hostas Hummingbirder Region: Indiana Irises
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant and/or Seed Trader Celebrating Gardening: 2015
thanks for all the pics, Kent. I love the last pic of the dark luminata. You would think he would do something with it unless maybe it has low bud count or something.

I have purchased 'Wedding Night' twice and both times it died. And I have been growing irises for over 25 years. So I don't know what goes on there.
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Jan 7, 2014 6:58 PM CST
Name: Marvin Davis
southeast Indiana (Zone 6a)
Birds Daylilies Hostas Hummingbirder Region: Indiana Irises
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant and/or Seed Trader Celebrating Gardening: 2015
'Secret Recipe' is awesome and looks like a little darker version of 'Spirit World' which I once grew and somehow lost. However, now all this has me fantasizing about a black luminata. Woo hoo!

Midnite Oil is not a great grower for me but I have tried 'Epicenter' with it to no avail. But you never quit. Once I crossed 'Annabelle Babson' (pink) with 'Rancho Rose' (rose plicata) and out of about 20 sdlgs. only one had a plic pattern. You just never know. That's what makes it so interesting and captivating.

And thanks for the suggestion Greg on 'Old Renegade'. Guess it wouldn't hurt to try it although I think I recall the the seedling also has 'Starlit Velvet' in it just like 'Old Renegade' does.
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Jan 7, 2014 7:16 PM CST
Name: Marvin Davis
southeast Indiana (Zone 6a)
Birds Daylilies Hostas Hummingbirder Region: Indiana Irises
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant and/or Seed Trader Celebrating Gardening: 2015
And thanks Tom for liking my sdlg. I have lots of good sdlgs. but I don't know if we have a thread for posting them. Anyway 'Oreo' is very dark at least some of the time, but usually when I have seen it the foliage is terrible brown and scraggle and the bloom has poor form mostly. Maybe I am being too picky here. Also I would like to come from the reddish black side if possible hoping for the red beard as well. So maybe 'Fiery Temper' would be a good idea. Right now I am just casting about for possibilities. Jedlicka has one called 'Total Darkness' that really looks good, but I see no trace of plic around the hafts or beard to encourage me. anyway thanks again
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Jan 7, 2014 7:22 PM CST
Name: Paul
Utah (Zone 5b)
Grandchildren are my greatest joy.
Annuals Enjoys or suffers cold winters Plant Lover: Loves 'em all! Garden Procrastinator Hosted a Not-A-Raffle-Raffle Plays in the sandbox
Tender Perennials Tomato Heads The WITWIT Badge Region: Utah Vegetable Grower Hybridizer
Diggit............Start a thread of your own and show us your seedlings Thumbs up Thumbs up Thumbs up
Paul Smith Pleasant Grove, Utah
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Jan 7, 2014 7:47 PM CST
Name: Bonnie Sojourner
Harris Brake Lake, Arkansas (Zone 7a)
Magnolia zone
Region: United States of America Region: Arkansas Master Gardener: Arkansas Irises Plant and/or Seed Trader Moon Gardener
Garden Ideas: Master Level Dragonflies Bulbs Garden Art Celebrating Gardening: 2015 Gardens in Buckets
and, everyone else that has seedlings post them also. I would love to see what people are creating in the iris world!
Thro' all the tumult and the strife I hear the music ringing; It finds an echo in my soul— How can I keep from singing?
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Jan 7, 2014 9:30 PM CST
Name: Mary Ann
Western Kentucky (Zone 7a)
Birds Irises Hummingbirder Hostas Keeps Horses Farmer
Daylilies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Container Gardener Region: Kentucky Region: United States of America Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Diggit -- I love your black seedling! Lovey dubby Have a question -- do the falls relax, or remain flared?
Thoughts become things -- choose the good ones. (www.tut.com)
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Jan 7, 2014 9:54 PM CST
Name: Marvin Davis
southeast Indiana (Zone 6a)
Birds Daylilies Hostas Hummingbirder Region: Indiana Irises
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant and/or Seed Trader Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Hi Mary Ann
They may relax a bit more than this pic shows but do not become droopy. I am not a big fan of the straight out flair as much as I once was but I sure don't want droopers either. It has been my observation that most of the time when falls are wide enough to overlap, they do not droop into the dog-ear form that I really, really dislike. I probably should have introduced this already since it is a good grower, great bud count and nice ruffling especially for one so dark. Just haven't got around to it, though I do have enough stock to do so. Maybe it was because a judge once criticized me for saving an iris without the clean hafts. Some of the judges are still holding the line on that. Especially the older judges. I have saved it mainly with the intention of someday working for the black plicatas. Right now I am soliciting material to boost my gene pool for that project.
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Jan 7, 2014 10:22 PM CST
Moderator
Name: Kent Pfeiffer
Southeast Nebraska (Zone 5b)
Charter ATP Member I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Plant Database Moderator Plant Identifier Region: Nebraska Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Million Pollinator Garden Challenge Forum moderator Irises Garden Sages Garden Ideas: Master Level
I could understand the push for clean hafts back in the 70's and before. Back then, haft marks were almost always a dull shade of brown that muddied up the overall color of the flower. When I was a kid, my mom had the most beautiful light blue TB, but even then I thought it was marred a bit because it had light brownish hash marks.

We are way past that now, though, have been for at least a couple of decades really. I think the markings on your seedling provide some nice pop, diggit.
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Jan 7, 2014 11:45 PM CST
Name: Brad
iowa (Zone 5a)
I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Diggit I really like your seedling nice color !!! and this sounds like a really fun project Big Grin I just went through my pictures from the West Coast and I came up with 2 that I would definitely try that a few growers have used recently to produce some darker plicata's. The 1st is (Storm Track) it is one of Kieth's it has produced( Grapeitizer & Penguin Party) both from Mid America and intro'd over the past few years both are darker purple plicata's it also has 2 other plicata's from it one of them was (Tunnel Vision) if you pull up the pedigree of it there is one flower in there that stands out called (Blackout) this plant is used over and over again to produce that almost black color in Iris some of its kids are Oreo, Midnight Oil, and one of my favorites Nobel Gesture has it in the pedigree 3 times so I would try that one and see what happens it has a impressive pedigree of dark Plicata's.

The next is one I think you have or at least you have a excellent picture of it in the database is called( Inside Track) it has produced the two plants Kent mentioned above (Circle Of Light & Wedding Night) so it throw's dark plicatas. I found 2 seedlings from it that are dark that are being grown out in Oregon both used it as a pod parent so if you haven't tried it, I would give it a shot maybe (Inside Track x your seedling x Noble Gesture) or another really dark one with ruffles may get you closer to your goal at least that is my 2 cents worth on it. I hope you find something I would love to have a all black Plicata !!
Here are the pics of the seedlings that I found

Thumb of 2014-01-08/ARUBA1334/2b2b6a Thumb of 2014-01-08/ARUBA1334/1a1248

I think some of the darkest I have seen lately have come from Schreiners they are (Here Comes The Night & Raven Girl)you might throw them in the mix as well they do still have a little purple not solid black but worth checking out.

Thumb of 2014-01-08/ARUBA1334/e021c6

I think I have only seen one flower that I thought was really close to achieving a solid Black at least some of it was, I have know idea what made it obviously it is a unfinished seedling but it is the darkest color I have seen up close so I know the genes are there somewhere to get solid black.
Thumb of 2014-01-08/ARUBA1334/de70d3
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Jan 8, 2014 12:20 AM CST
Name: Marvin Davis
southeast Indiana (Zone 6a)
Birds Daylilies Hostas Hummingbirder Region: Indiana Irises
Native Plants and Wildflowers Plant and/or Seed Trader Celebrating Gardening: 2015
Whoa! Brad, that was more than any two cents worth. What a bunch of good info. I went to the database and checked the lineage as you said and I see some real possibilities from those selections. I will have to obtain them at the first opportunity. The pic of 'Inside Track' in my plant list was shot at Rockytop Garden in Tennessee where I introduce and I thought Phil provided me with a rhizome of that one as I left that day, but I was unable to find it when I got home. So back to square one. I sound like the kid that went to the candy store with no money right about now. As I said earlier this project kinda got slid to the back burner for a while but for some reason this winter my interest has been piqued again and I will go after it again with new energy this year. Of course, you are an iris person and you knew that last pic of the sdlg. with the bright orange red beard would get me going. So right . I don't suppose you have any extra info of any kind on that one that would help me? Any way thanks for all the good pics and the quick response . This thread has turned out to be very productive in a short time. I am happy to have found this website. It seems so much more personal and friendly than Dave's . At least to me. thanks again
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Jan 8, 2014 7:42 AM CST
Name: Mary Ann
Western Kentucky (Zone 7a)
Birds Irises Hummingbirder Hostas Keeps Horses Farmer
Daylilies I was one of the first 300 contributors to the plant database! Container Gardener Region: Kentucky Region: United States of America Celebrating Gardening: 2015
We've all migrated from Dave's Garden. Used to be home -- isn't any more. I do check their database once in awhile -- that's all.

For whatever it's worth -- I love the white haft marks on your black Iris -- to me, they *make* the Iris. Very distinctive. And I love the beard color. This is an Iris that I would buy right now -- and a win-win if you continue to work with it toward your black plicata. It will be fun to watch as you progress toward your goal. Green Grin! I'm glad that you've joined us here.
Thoughts become things -- choose the good ones. (www.tut.com)

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